337 Marianne Demello-Smith - Facing the Fear: A Bold Move from Corporate Security to Authentic Storyteller

:: 00:00

Anne Demello Smith. Thank you so much for joining me on podcast junkies.

:: 00:05

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. A little nervous, but excited.

:: 00:10

Yeah, you mentioned that and as we were just getting started and maybe we can start there, obviously you've got experience interviewing podcasters on your show a message in the middle and there's something to be said about feeling in control when you're the host and that you are in charge of the energy, the pace and the direction of the conversations in which you've experienced. But it seems like I've had this happen a little bit to myself when I'm on shows as well, so I'm wondering if you can talk through what that's like being on the receiving end.

:: 00:42

Yeah. So for me, I think being on the receiving end is just another maybe vulnerable spot, right, just opening up and being an open book to whatever question comes your way, because to your point you can't really control the questions. I guess you could. But that's not about this show, it's just a conversation, right? So I think it's being open and willing to sort of show whatever needs to come out, whatever flows in the conversation, and then letting yourself be put out there. I think when we're having a conversation and I'm on this end of the microphone, it's not really about my work or my ability to host and have a great conversation with somebody.

It's more about who I am and what I'm all about.

:: 01:34

Is that something that you find difficult to talk about publicly, like more about your origin story or getting into details about, like your personal background?

:: 01:45

It is. By nature, I think I'm relatively guarded for lots of reasons and tend to sort of keep it behind a wall. So starting a podcast was like complete opposite, right of what you would think. But when I look back and I think about my youth and the things I loved and sort of how I got here, it was getting to a point and maybe we'll get into this but where I was taking a pause in my life and sort of evaluating a lot of things and realizing that I sort of had forgotten a lot of the things I love and I think that happens to a lot of, I'll say, especially middle-aged women and I started to lean back into those things and part of what I loved as a child and coming up through my middle school years and even high school, I loved AM Talk Radio. I was an AM Talk Radio junkie, which is so weird for King Gray.

:: 02:46

Where did you grow up? What city?

:: 02:48

I grew up in Rhode. Island partially in Pawtucket and then a town called Tiberton, but a little old Rhode Island. But yeah, I loved things like that, I loved journalism and being on the newspaper and that kind of thing. So I think I started to take that pause and sort of remember those things that I love and it led me here.

:: 03:09

What was it about AM Radio that you loved so much?

:: 03:12

I think it was a couple of things. So I think it felt kind of like podcasting. I think it felt very personal, Like they were talking to you right. And maybe that guy was just talking to you. That thing he said was directly at you, even though there could have been thousands or millions of listeners. But I also love learning in books and education and I'm all about learning new things, so I'm guessing I was probably very interested as well and just kind of learning lots of different things, hearing about lots of different things.

:: 03:45

Was podcasting your first foray into putting yourself out there in a public way?

:: 03:52

Well, yeah, mostly so. For many years, for like 25, 26 years I had a big team and I was in, I had a career, and it sometimes brought me to the stage to speak. I tried to prevent it as much as possible. I was not comfortable on the stage. I will tell you, though which is interesting that you're asking this, and now that I'm thinking about it, we kind of had a running joke that I was a client favorite any time we were in a conference setting in a room, so sitting at a table could have been 50 people. But sitting at a table just having a conversation, sharing what I knew, leading them in a certain direction, all about it, had no issue. Ask me to stand in front of that podium Not fun, I did not like it. So I guess I could correlate. It's pretty similar. Yeah, I would try to avoid it. I did it sometimes, but I would say going into podcasting was definitely the first time.

:: 04:57

Did you ever take speaker training?

:: 04:59

No, I did not.

:: 05:01

I mean I took some years ago and I did it. I don't know that it necessarily takes the jitters away, because I remember, even after the training and you going through those mock Sessions and you're in front of a crowd and you know I had my spiel about like I perfected like a five minute or ten minute talk, whatever it was. And I remember going to a couple of podcast conferences and giving it, but the first time I was that one in in Australia. This is, we are podcast and I gave the talk. You know, and probably, if you're watching from the audience's perspective, it looked like everything went fine without a hitch.

Right, I felt like I had a ball of cotton in my mouth. I knew it's just like, and I vividly remember like I'm here in front of my peers. A lot of these folks were like my friends, so it was, and it was a very intimate setting, wasn't a stage, it was we're all at the same level and everyone was just at tables, so. But there is that something that doesn't go away and I think it's one of the biggest fears that people have of this idea of like either Performing or speaking on stage. And there's something about, I think, the vulnerability aspect of it that really triggers some sort of you know, I don't know what part of the brain it is, because I always get those mixed up whether it's the and the fight or flight and all that stuff, that the mammalian Instinct to say like I'm somewhere where I don't feel very comfortable right.

Everything that does with the body, whether it's you know, you sweat in places. You didn't really realize you sweat that much before, so you know you just react differently to it. But it's interesting that you didn't have that experience when you're at the table. So it's not a I don't think it was a function of you Not being well versed and being able to speak intelligent about a topic that you knew well or passionate about. It's just a different dynamic, I think, when it just when you're on a stage.

:: 06:46

Yeah, completely. That's exactly right. Yeah, so, and I you know some people, I think, can outgrow that, and some people Will always be uncomfortable, and I think that's okay. Part of one of my messages is that we need to learn to be more comfortable in the uncomfortable, so that's okay.

:: 07:05

So, without getting into the full resume, what did the, or does the corporate journey look like for you?

:: 07:13

Yeah, so I mean in a nutshell, for about, like I said, 25, 26 years I worked at the Basically the same company. It was the same company. Multiple roles came, you know, up through the ranks and eventually I was a vice president and had a pretty big organization that was surrounded with support and development and product ownership for business applications used in the financial industry. And then in 2021, after multiple acquisitions that our company went through right after the other, just wasn't aligned with the company that I felt I Would have retired at but no longer was in alignment and you know we parted ways and that was, at the time, both Devastating and liberating.

It really gave me the opportunity to reevaluate a lot of things.

:: 08:12

I went through a similar experience. I was in corporate for 20 plus years. I worked in the marketing department and you kind of assume that may just be the rest of your life and, coming from you know I'm a child of the 80s, so you know your parents instill in you the the importance of like having that steady job working for a big company. There's some cash shade that goes with working. We have worked at JP Morgan Chase, like I said, and E-Trade, and so you know they're the prominent companies in the financial space, but there was always like a pole.

There was always I don't know if I would call it an entrepreneurial pull or a desire to do something else and I just couldn't like put my finger on and I tried, I tried several times and then came back with my tail between my legs and Would ask for, like my job back or just Thankfully I had my corporate godfather lean on and he was able to kind of line things up for me and so that's. It's always been helpful to have those relationships. But I think there it's a bit jarring to move into that other world and I notice it a lot when you think about people preparing their LinkedIn profiles when you're in the corporate world, like the only time you look at your LinkedIn is when you're getting ready for a new job.

:: 09:14

That's about it yeah and just yeah. No, I was just gonna add, just to be completely transparent, I am in another corporate job at this point. So I do work fully, I have a day job, but I've moved to individual contributor role, I am in program management and Just have a different Work-life balance, and so things are different in that way. So I'm able to still enjoy things on the side where I wasn't able to do that before.

:: 09:44

But it sounds like something shifted when that happened, when that transition happened internally for you, because you talked about it or even referred to it as a midlife crisis, and I think we all go through. I don't think we have one. I think we go through various milestones and, for those of you that believe in, like the astrology and the big returns of some of these planets, like some of these happen in bigger cycles, like 15, 25 years, you know. So there's various things that happen that are shifting us in a way or nudging us to reevaluate, like what our life is about and where we're headed and if we are on the path that we're meant to be, and I think that's Sounds like that's something that you went through and I don't know if that's the timing related to starting the podcast, but maybe can you talk a little bit, a little bit about that and, internally, what was happening in your world as you were going through that transition.

:: 10:36

Yeah, I mean I was going through. So, of course, the separation from a job and a team that I grew from the beginning and had just Surrounded myself with every day, every night, everything for that many years it was my everything. It really was my everything and, like many, I was very focused on External validation, cues and just that hamster wheel of what's next and you know you get one roll and you climb up for the next and it just never ends right. So when it came time and I had this pause, the separation, I actually took six months off and At that same time I was starting to go through a wellness journey. I lost a ton of weight, like to your point, I think there were a lot of things just shifting in me at the same time and I just started to really look at who am I and how did I get? How did they get?

here, I guess. I mean, I wouldn't call it a midlife crisis, but I guess it's similar and that that's. That's just a lot of self reflection, a lot of how did so many years go by and I'm 53. So how?

did 50 years go by and get to this place Right, and suddenly be like wait, how did I get here and where did all that time go and when did I make these decisions? And, by the way, who did I want to be? Cause I don't know if that right, so I don't know if that's who I want to be or I wanted to be. And you know, you can look back and everyone's life is like this, and this is really the genesis of my podcast. Life is mess and it's complicated and we can't predict it, and you make a series of choices based on what's going on, like you can't predict what's coming out. Do you want things happen and you make choices and suddenly you find yourself here 50 years later. Right, but I took it as a time to really start looking at my values and how did I really want my priorities to stack up?

I'd say things that were important to me Family as an example, I would have always said it's very important to me, but the truth is I put my job before my family a lot. I mean that happens in climbing the corporate ladder and corporate America sometimes right. So it was time to just sort of evaluate a lot of that stuff and say you know, between now and dead, what do I want it to look like and do?

:: 13:01

I want to do more of the same or do something else.

And I think what's important for the listener to realize is also to understand that there's no right time for this epiphany to happen and there's no. You know it's not like and you shouldn't. We should be gentle with ourselves in terms of how we came to this, what caused it. You know whether it's something that's jarring. You know I've had some life changing experiences when I've gone through a divorce and I've lost one of my best friends during COVID, and so there's moments where you know there can shake you up.

But sometimes it's the slow burn or it's the, you know, the frog and the pot analogy, where you know it's happening so gradually that get to a point where you're like I don't really think there was anything jarring enough to provoke me to ask these questions. So I think it's helpful to be gentle on ourselves and be grateful that we do get the opportunity, because there are people who are on that whether you want to call it a hamster wheel, who don't know otherwise and are very comfortable in the life that they have, and maybe if you ask them on their deathbed, they'll say yeah, it was okay. But I think more and more people are waking up and there is, I see it happening more and more. All ages, all generations, are going through that. So I'm curious for you how and when podcasting came on your radar and how you started to think about that. This might be something that you could be interested in, having come from that, you know, being in that corporate world.

:: 14:29

Yeah, so I listened to, I was a listener, but I also I mentioned I was sort of going through this period of my life where I was trying to get into a more healthy lifestyle. I had COVID was going on too. There was a lot of stuff going on right. So there was a lot of online community stuff. I had joined and become part of this wellness community and I started sort of pseudo coaching and doing some things in that community, such as leading book clubs, you know, inspirational and developmental, personal development book clubs. And again back to the things I love, I went to school for.

English and journalism. I haven't.

I did zero things in my career with that formally right, but that's what I went to school for because I loved it and again I started to really connect back with gosh. I really enjoy this and I started doing some author interviews in some of that and I was like this is fabulous, I love this. This is like you know. It really lit me up. I was finding stuff that lit me up and so I started to just slowly think about what could I do to make that more my own versus doing it for somebody else in their community, and also make it bigger, do something bigger, and in bigger I don't mean just get to the masses, I mean bigger in that, not just be specific to books. But how do we connect with people, help people, give them inspiration, give them hope, share messages? It's all about that. We all have lots of experience we can share with one another, and so I sort of just slowly started.

Then I started doing research. I'm a researcher, I'm a learner. I started doing research and learning and I didn't pull the plug for a while probably a good, I don't know eight months, just out of sheer. I didn't know all the answers and I was uncomfortable with going forward in that way, doing it messy. I did eventually do it messy, but I had to get myself there. I had to get myself through that first step of just doing it.

:: 16:40

Did you have a vision for what you wanted the show to be? I did, I did, I did, I did.

:: 16:44

I did A loose vision right I struggle with. There's a ton of advice out there from probably the masters of podcasting that will tell you to niche down to a very specific thing, and I still to this day, you know, going in now almost two years, and I can't say that I'm really niched down where those people would probably be happy with me because my vision for it was to get in that spot of life's messiness, that area of unique experience but yet shared experience.

We all, to your point. We all have these moments in our lives that come up. And it's not about those moments because they're going to come up for everybody, but it's about what did you do about it, who did you lean on? Any lessons learned that you can share with the next guy. So it's about providing some, maybe fast pass to somebody else that's going through the same thing, or inspiration for somebody that maybe thinks they can't get through it and you can kind of show them that you can get through it.

So it was more that let me go after that age demographic like myself, women in the middle but also help to find those messages in the middle of books and stories and people's experiences that we could share across the board. I love it.

:: 18:07

So that was my loose, loose thought. I love the fast pass reference. That's the toll.

:: 18:12

Disney yourself the toll express tool.

:: 18:15

Yeah, and then I grew up in New York, so I'm New England is probably the same thing, so for the benefit of listening to, that, it's the express payment system. On the toll.

:: 18:24

Yes, well, I think, disney too had a fast pass right.

:: 18:28

You don't have to wait in the lines but you're right, either one.

:: 18:31

The point is you don't have to figure it all out yourself. Maybe somebody can give you hey, if you do step one, two, three, four, you can get to five faster. You know what I mean.

:: 18:42

That kind of Were there shows that you were listening to that, were inspiring at the time, or helping you understand or making you realize that maybe there was perspective that you could take that was different from theirs.

:: 18:55

No, I don't think I could say that. I really. No, I would say no Because even to this day I'm kind of all over the place. So I have a few favorites. They're going to be fan for it. People in this genre will. Yeah, I love Mel Robbins, Everybody loves Mel Robbins. I love Glennon Doyle and that whole crew.

:: 19:12

Like.

:: 19:12

I just, I mean, that's kind of my genre of what I love in personal too, so but I can't say that I had anything and I jump all around a lot, so I can't say that there's any one thing. That was like I was listening to this and this is what I want to emulate, or I was listening to this and I don't want to do that.

:: 19:30

Yeah.

:: 19:30

I don't. Yeah, that wasn't really yeah. No, I can't say that.

:: 19:34

But definitely books have been an influence. So are there a couple of personal development favorites of yours.

:: 19:40

There definitely are. I would say some of my favorite in general topic or just across the board would be like atomic habits. I love that as a point of reference for people that are sort of trying to just frame up how to have it impact your life and how do you change habits and the the slight edge? Jeff Oleson, consistency, I think it falls in that same genre, but consistency, you know, one talks more about habits and the framework around habits and creating them and breaking them, and the other is more, I think, leans a little bit more towards the how consistency plays in and that's really important.

Dr Joe Dispenza, breaking the habit of being yourself Well that one I love just because it's about learning to come off autopilot, which was part of my whole sort of awakening, if you want to use that word that everybody's using, but just kind of waking up to what's reality and being more present in my own life, like most of us, to your point, there's a bunch of people that never even think about coming off that hamster wheel and waking up, and I think for me that book is all about being more present, being coming off autopilot, really recognizing what's going on in your life, and so I really love that, as you think about that last one, the term autopilot.

:: 21:07

it's interesting because I think the concept of it is that people don't recognize that they're on autopilot. So are there? Have you had in the course of your conversations and on the podcast, are there ways that people can maybe ask themselves if they're on autopilot, if they're not aware that they are? Yeah, I mean, I think there's lots of ways right.

:: 21:28

There's lots that you can read, azzillion books and you can find lots of techniques but there's simple things to just start recognizing whether or not you're being more present or get more present, and that's when I think you start being able to distinguish between the two. You know simple things, like for some of us. I mean, just think about have you ever Driven home, home from work or to work or to a place, and gotten there and said, hey, how did I even did I go through that stuff?

Did I like not even knowing how you got there right, yeah, I see you laughing. So you've done that. I've done that too. How did we do that? We were literally on auto Autopilot, right before Tesla because we drove.

Yes but we drove I don't know however many miles. For me my commute was long, so say, an hour 50 ish miles. And To not even know that how you made it, that is autopilot, right. So if anybody's had that happen to them, or I think, looking at how many times do you like get through the day and think about Not even kind of remembering a certain conversation? Or I'm not talking like we're old and we're doing.

I'm talking like you really weren't really there, like somebody was standing in front of you and you were multitasking and you weren't really pet you know you were kind of like yeah, like so there's definitely Signs there and I think you can teach yourself to do things to be more present pretty easily, like If you go on a walk this is a pretty easy one, but if you go on a walk or drive or whatever, start, tell yourself to notice certain things, like the color of the house or Find the numbers on the mailbox anyone that has a number five, and I'm just making that up, but something To really pull you to pay attention, and then I think you'll start noticing the difference and you can start really picking up on those things.

:: 23:32

So let's turn back the clock to you getting the podcast together, because it's helpful for folks that are listening, that May have just started a show, are thinking to start on the show. There's the gamut here. I just interviewed Dave Jackson, who's been podcasting Probably over 13, 14 years, so maybe longer. So it's always nice to see the range, but what did you have in mind in terms of did you know it was going to be interview based to begin with, and how did you go about, like getting your First guests? And I'm curious because it's always an interesting experience and I went through it 10 years ago when I started this show. But I'm in this day and age and there's no shortage of information available to your point. You can watch. There's hundreds, if not thousands, of youtube videos.

I'm podcasting, which can be overwhelming, but I'm curious how you found your way through that maze of information to get started and what your that vision early on was for what you wanted to do.

:: 24:26

Okay. So a couple things in the answer to that. I did envision Including interviews and that being a primary focus and honestly I'm still more comfortable. I actually get a lot of feedback that people like my solo episodes but I'm more comfortable still doing the interviews. So that's a stretch area for me that I'm working on.

But so I in my head I knew I wanted to do a mix. I wanted to do some Book review kind of episodes that would be solos. I wanted to just be doing some personal life lessons and reflection type episodes and then, but be primarily Interview based, I did take a course, a quick course like a succession course, on starting podcast. So that definitely helped give me because there's some to your point. You can get everything out there. There's so much information you can go on youtube and find everything, but there's also a million opinions. So trying to narrow down just low budget, how do you start with a decent microphone? Low budget, how do you? What platform do you pick those kind of things? You just you know it's nice to have a personal connection and then have somebody sort of give you a, a list or a cheat sheet again that you could just kind of check off and get started.

So that was how I sort of framed up the technical side of it as far as getting guests and stuff, I guess.

again back to my personal nature I'm a researcher, so I am always out there looking at Ted talks, looking at books that come out looking at just listening into, like what people are talking about, and then I'll reach out and I'll start trying to narrow down who that person is or if I have a specific segment, like I was doing a series on grief. So I put you know some things out there and said, hey, I'm doing a series on grief, I'm looking for some experts, and then I do a ton of research on people and I listen to what they've got out there.

I meet them and talk to them and see if they're a good fit, and it's important to me to have people that I feel a authentic connection with and that align with who I am, who the show is, what it's about.

So for me that's important, so I do that. So I think that's how I got started and that's what we're doing. That's how I got started and that's what framed it up. I would say what I wasn't prepared for is really how much work it is. It's a lot of work, right? I think people maybe don't realize that it's a lot of work and sure you can hit the button and record on your cell phone and just post it somewhere and done. But if you want to do that research and do the prep work that I'm talking about and you want to edit and you don't have a budget to outsource that or you don't want to outsource all that, there's a lot of work that goes into it.

:: 27:15

And so what were those early interviews like for you?

:: 27:22

They were great. No, honestly, when I look back, I'm not there yet. Maybe and you know, I don't know at some point I'll look back and go. I do that more on the solo episodes than I do the interviews. I think For the most part I would say there's a handful that I probably would say, yeah, maybe I didn't, this guess wasn't the best one or whatever for what I wanted to portray. But I don't think yeah, it wasn't really nervous. I can't say I was nervous. I think it was fine. I had done my research, I had met the person we get on, we have a conversation, so I don't yeah, I think they were okay. I think they were exhilarating.

I still feel that way, I still get excited about meeting somebody. Yeah right, and that's part of why I still do it right, I think, being able to connect with somebody and learn something and then be able to kind of curate that for other people and Then have people come back and say, wow, that was really helpful, or I got this, or that really lifted me, whatever the message is, that's exciting to me.

:: 28:24

How many episodes are you up to now?

:: 28:26

80.

:: 28:29

Yeah, that's a lot. Do you notice any difference in how you are as a host with your 80th versus your maybe your first few like? Do you notice the improvement? I know it's hard when you look back and you're just trying to see. It's hard to measure looking back. But then, yeah, do you feel a difference in how you conduct these interviews now, different than when you started?

:: 28:50

So I feel that I'm a little bit more and this is about me personally as a whole. I've been working on this but I'm a little bit less worried about having so much thought around what I want to come out of the conversation being invested in the end For and more free forum. I mean, I still always will have a framework and again, I've met with the person, I've done research, I know the areas I want to touch on with a specific person, but I think I'm a little bit more comfortable Just winging it and saying again, still knowing who I'm talking to and what the general topic is about really just kind of Winging it.

:: 29:31

Has your personal journey changed because you talk a lot about this idea of living a balanced life. You talk about, you know, a lot about gratitude. Is your journey evolving as a result of you starting the podcast and you having the conversations, and maybe some aha moments as Guests reveal something that is relevant in your life. I'm curious how it's affected you in your personal life chicken and egg. Your personal growth yeah.

:: 29:54

Yeah, I think it's a combination. So I think I was not. I think I for sure was already on this journey before I started, you know, having the podcast and I think I already have Some understanding of many of the topics that I'm going to talk about, but for sure they're bringing expertise to the table. That's not my everyday day job.

So of course they're gonna bring new ideas and Things that either solidify what I'm thinking or I have a thought about or where I'm going, or kind of give some Specific tactical ways to do certain things that I haven't heard before, that I can really use myself but also share with others. So I think, listen, I think the personal development For the best of us, I think the personal development journey it doesn't end yeah goes on and on and you're gonna constantly be in this evolution.

So I think it goes hand in hand. I think I'm changing, I think I learn as I'm going. I'm learning outside of the podcast, but I'm learning within the podcast as well, so I think it works well together and do you find that your relationship to Taking imperfect action has changed as well?

:: 31:06

coming from that background, you have, obviously you had a leadership position. You let a team and it's hard to not feel like you always have to have the answers, because I've lived through that period as well.

:: 31:17

Yeah, for sure. This was literally the first thing I did when I, you know I'll say messy I'm not, though, that's not my phrase, right, I didn't coin that phrase, but doing it messy. I think Just starting, even though I didn't have all the answers, this was definitely the first foray into that, but I've definitely been doing a lot more of that and living a lot less planned, a lot less, again, focused on the outcome. Well, that's a change I've been implementing in myself and it shows up here and it shows up in my personal life as well and then how do you Take everything that happened the transition, the podcast, the conversations, what you're learning throughout this process?

:: 32:02

and then how does that color like how you see the world on a daily basis and how you develop gratitude for everything that's been happening along this journey?

:: 32:12

Yeah, I mean, it changed everything. It colors everything vibrantly. I can't say I really felt gratitude for a whole lot of things before all this started and now I Can't say that a day goes by that I don't feel some kind of gratitude without you know, it's noticing the small things. It's. It can be the smallest thing in your day, but really being able to pick up on the the what you have and what's there and what You're joyful for and thankful for Versus what you don't have or what you're trying to get.

It's just a big shift, such a big shift. I'm just so thankful for so many things, just dumb stuff, right. I can be in the grocery store like with my husband and there's people complaining about how expensive. Everything is and you know, my immediate default response is I'm thankful, we can afford it.

:: 33:05

Yeah, how many people can't right? But that's a shift, right.

:: 33:08

I mean just to naturally have your brain go to that spot.

:: 33:11

That's a shift, so I think it colors everything have your friends and family and people that are close to you. Have they seen the shift?

:: 33:19

Yes so much a good example of that is. So I host the holidays for my family I'm always the one, so it's somewhere between 15 and 30 people, depending on the holiday, right, but again, if I go back Historically, I'm the planner, the over planner.

Everything has to be right, we have to live a list for everything, blah, blah, blah. Fast-forward to just this year and I was doing something and I don't remember specifically the topic, but I just kept saying it's whatever, it'll be fine, I don't care, you know it all work out whatever. My husband literally looked over and he goes man, you really have changed, because I was just so comfortable. The fact that this is it's not important.

Yeah whatever, it's gonna be fine. Yeah it's fine, but yeah, that's different. So yes, people do notice and that's really good. Yeah.

:: 34:12

Coming from the corporate background, I always think about, like you know, we get into this like end of your planning, budgeting, forecasting, you know you, the finance team comes in. They're like, okay, what's your you know? But, and especially if you're managing teams, headcount, like all this jargony stuff, that just kind of I'm kind of like squirming, like thinking back all the things you know we would have to think about back then. But you don't have that at that scale with your show as well. But you do have that and maybe that planning perspective, that future-looking perspective. Where do you see this going and what do you envision for your show? One of my favorite questions for my coaching clients is if we were to have this conversation 12 months from now, what would need to happen with your progress for you to be, like, happy with where you are?

:: 34:53

so great I been debating what my word for the year is gonna be for 2024, because I'm holding a virtual vision board session for my community on Sunday and One of the things that I always do to frame up that vision board is kind of come up with that, my word of the year, right, and then kind of plot in my goals and stuff around that. So I was, of course, given this some thought, like I do every year, and for this, for the podcast, I think, a couple of things. So I do want to focus on a couple areas that I have thought about, but I haven't dipped my toe in again, just not knowing enough.

It's silly things, tactical things, but it also feeds into the strategy of growth, right? So I want to get on YouTube. I'm not yet, so I need to take those steps and do that. I Want to start guessing more here. I am. No one and done is not the way. But I think no seriously. I think we both know one of the biggest pieces of advice people would give around growth is Get out there more get on different shows, get some exposure right, and so I need to do that.

I need to push myself to do that, even though it's uncomfortable. So there's a couple of things like that will help me Say that I'm making the strides. For me, this is definitely a long game. My vision you asked my vision at the beginning, so my vision for this was this is going to be something that I use to leverage when I retire from my day job, right? So I know, yes, everybody and I'll get in trouble for saying that everybody their brother's a coach these days.

But the reality is everybody their brothers coach these days. But I also know that I grew and built teams for years and have naturally coached people for you, I mean, it just comes very, very naturally. And I, you know, and I have a community today, which you know, there's a lot of interaction and off on the side, unofficial coaching, and I know, someday I would like to do something more in that space and the podcast is a great Leverage to be able to get messages out and connect with people.

So I guess I sort of have a, you know, a very short-term tactical plan and then I have a very long term I would say not three year, but probably more like a seven to ten year plan in front of me. But yeah, so we'll see.

:: 37:19

How did we get connected? Because I meant to ask you at the beginning and because I know it's part of you, obviously, your outreach strategy. But I'm just curious.

:: 37:26

Amy Fagan, right, so I think you guys have a couple of connections and you interviewed her and.

Interestingly enough, when Amy was starting, she was coming up just slightly behind me and she was pinging some people trying to get Information about how do you find guests and how do you do sort of an intake. And I'm like, listen, I just got started and I don't think this artifacts gonna be like prize winning, but here you can have everything I've created. You know, and I shared my stuff with her. So we became friends and are also in some of the same communities together.

:: 38:00

Yeah, she's. Yeah, she's in my. We have a small community that meets on a regular basis To like help grow their show, so we've been getting to know her a little bit better than it, but she's, yeah, had her on a recent episode which I'm sure you heard, and yeah. I just love her energy and enthusiasm for what she does for her show.

:: 38:20

She's the biggest cheerleader. I just have to say. I always tell her that and tag her when people say anything, because she cheerleads for everyone. Like anyone she believes in, it gets behind. I mean she is there no matter what you do, she is there to cheer you on.

:: 38:36

So I really value that and appreciate that in her yeah well, I appreciate you sharing the plan because a lot of times when people get started and it's some of the conversations I have with new clients because, you know, have a podcast agency would produce shows for businesses and for Indies as well, and I've been more conscious of asking them what their vision is for the show. You know, because you could have it as a hobby and there's nothing wrong against that, and but you should understand that inherent challenges that come with that and know that it's going to be bootstrap and it's going to be fun. If you have it as a side project or something you want to do, like you know, that could be your hobby. You know podcast and can be a hobby, yeah, but for others folks and who have a long-term vision of where they'd like to be or who know that they have a skill set that would be applicable for their audience or their community, I think it is important to think through.

You know, one of the first things we I've been conscious of now as we start new shows is Asking them who's the sponsor for the show going to be, and in many cases it's going to be themselves. It's going to be them highlighting like something that they do, reminding listeners that they work with people. There's a way to work with me if you're interested, or I do have a community, or I do have events, or I do, even if it's an Enamelist, you know just something. So you're always reminding them like, hey, this is, you know how I support the show. Here's what's happening in my world and we use a tool called captivate for our hosting and they make dynamic ad insertion pretty easy, which I've been pushing a lot. So now you can just run a promo all the time for your stuff, and I think it's really important to be thinking through that, because it is nice to know that at some point.

You know that you're building up an audience that you can take with you wherever you go and it's not dependent on the whims of a social media platform. So, yeah, giving it some thought and kudos to you for you know kind of thinking about that, and even, like you, if you said it is a long term 357 year plan it's important that you have that vision. And you did mention your community. I'm curious. That's something that's really a prize possession for most podcasters to know that they have one a and that they are able to Engage with them, because it's just without our listeners. You know we wouldn't have a show like. There's no other way. We just be like out. If the tree falls in the forest and no one's there doesn't make any sound.

So talk to me a little bit about what that journey has been like for you in terms of, yeah, first Recognizing that you had engaged listeners and how that grew into a community for you.

:: 40:54

So I probably did it opposite everybody else and I started that community first. So, again, I'm a planner and I knew I wanted to. I knew, you know I wanted to do that. I wanted to have the ability to connect with people and for me it was. That was a large part of it. But I also knew I didn't want to try to master all the social media algorithms and platforms.

And again, you teach this stuff. So it's probably against the green of what most teach in that you you know that's where you're going to get a lot of your lifts. Do your connections, hit as many of them as you can. But again, as a hobby, I'm going to say I started it as a hobby. Right, it made it'll shift, but at this point it's a hobby for me and, knowing that, I had to set my mindset around where is my biggest bang for my buck and where in do I want to spend the time and where are my listeners most?

And I'm not going to try to do it on 12 different places, because I know I would get burnt and it would become too much of a a quote, a job. It would become too much of a job or too much of a hassle and I wasn't looking for that. I wanted I need to stay in love with it to keep it up for seven to 10 years, right? I mean to your point about bootstrapping, if I'm paying for it all and I'm doing all the work, right, I'm not outsourcing at this point and I'm doing it all you got to love it you really do got to love it.

People need to hear that. I mean, you have to love what you're doing in some aspect either the connection or just the ability to get your voice out there, or whatever it is. But you got to love it because it's going to take a lot and so, yeah, for me it's all about just going with it at this point and sticking with it, because I love that connection and the community allows me to send out daily messages, connect when I have an event going on, get feedback from people about episodes, et cetera.

:: 42:51

So what does that community look like on a practical basis, and how do you stay connected with them?

:: 42:56

Yeah, so it's still growing right. I'm not out here to pretend that it's 12 million big and it's just a growing community.

:: 43:05

It's bigger than that.

:: 43:08

So it looks like, you know, I at least put out a post every day, something that's provocative and thought in some of the areas of focus that we tend to kind of zoom in on. Yeah, best cases. You have people who are, which typically does happen. You have people who are commenting on it and you know, maybe there's some conversation around it, and you're doing that in a Facebook group. Yeah, it's in a Facebook group, so sorry, practical sense.

:: 43:33

Yeah, it's in a Facebook group.

:: 43:34

So it's, and you know it's in a private Facebook group, which I honestly don't know if I made the right choice there or not, but I made that choice very thoughtfully, very intentionally, because I wanted it to feel like a safe place. A safe place where people could comment and people could have a conversation and not have their neighbor Joe be able to hear or see what they're saying.

:: 43:55

And well, they're sensitive topics too, I mean, if they want to, like that's having that safe space and just from this conversation and understanding how you're talking about changes and transitions and crises, and inevitably you can't touch on these topics without them venturing into sensitive areas and triggering things for people and people having to work through like why they made the decision, why they took so long to make the decision, or like feeling alone and making the decision, and I think I think making it private I think was absolutely the right call, because what you're communicating there is that you respect your listeners in a way that you value. You know that their ability to participate in a way that's going to respect their privacy, so I think that's great.

:: 44:45

Yeah, yeah, so practically that's what it's a Facebook group and it's a private Facebook group. And then I also try to do so. We were doing like every the holidays took a pause, but multiple book clubs throughout the year. So we do multiple book clubs, virtual book clubs, and people can sign up and, for a very small fee, participate in a group book club where they're getting prompts and, again, thought provoking things that would go along with the readings we're doing and I frame it up and what we're reading each week. And then there are meetings and we can kind of go over what everybody's thoughts were on it. So typical book club format. And then other things throughout the year, like I'm doing the virtual vision board session and that's just a freebie for everybody to come in and share your thoughts and bounce ideas off each other and get together, the community to get together and just try to do some impromptu things like that with whatever's going on, that's fun.

:: 45:45

So a couple of questions as we wrap up and, as you can see, it's pretty, it's pretty casual and we're almost at the top of the hours. What is something you've changed your mind about lately?

:: 45:56

So I did an episode on this. The thing that's jumping into my mind is it's silly, but it's it's pretty important to me is planning around vacations. So for years and years and years, I was the girl with a very detailed, bulleted list of itinerary, from minute to minute, of what we're going to do on vacation. Along with trying to be a little bit more present and prioritize my time, I made some decisions lately, just in the last quarter of 2023, to try to be a little bit more Lucy Goosey and plan a trip and hit the big things, but not do the planning. So I would say less planning, more just going with the flow.

:: 46:37

That's a good one.

:: 46:38

So I changed my mind about needing to plan out every little detail in order to have a fantastic vacation.

:: 46:43

That's awesome, and have you put it into practice on an actual vacation?

:: 46:47

Yes, and how to turn it out? Yes, listen to my episode. Okay, cool, I did.

:: 46:53

Well, make sure that there's a link to that one in the show notes as well. What is the most misunderstood thing about you?

:: 47:00

Oh, I guess, if I'm going to be fully transparent, people think that I'm very confident and outgoing, and that's not true. Like I have to put this is I'm forcing myself to be out here. This is not, as I said, comfortable for me. So by nature, I think I'm an introvert. I think because of my career and lots of things, I learned to be more of an extrovert, but I don't think it's my default. Yeah, so I think that people get that wrong.

:: 47:33

I think you find that a lot in this community, in the podcasting space, but also in this like digital world, where it's easy to maintain and have a presence without really engaging, like on a consistent basis with people. But I do notice that as well. I thought that I used to be more extroverted, but I'm not like I'll go to a podcast conference. After about the third or fourth day I think I'm ready to like come back home and just it's overload A little bit of a little bit, but I'm in the moment.

I'm very socially active and like it's talking to everybody, yeah, but I've also been conscious of being more intentional with the people that I do connect with as well. So that's something that's been top of mind for me. But thank you for sharing that, because I'm curious what your experience has been like in this conversation and I don't know, did you say that this is actually your first one of? In terms of guessing, it's not my first.

:: 48:21

Now this has been great, honestly, and the reason I really was attracted to doing this is because you do offer I think, a tagline, if you will is a safe place right for podcasts to come on and talk and just have a conversation, and I felt that when I listened Amy's was the first episode.

:: 48:40

And then I've gone back and listened to a bunch and I feel that energy and that vibe and I wanted somebody that you know.

:: 48:46

I felt that same.

:: 48:47

Good.

:: 48:48

Yeah, authenticity with. So I feel like this has been very just a conversation, which is what you want to do, so thank you for that. I have done some others, which made me shy away from it and it was more like rapid fire questions, and it's just not a fan of those.

:: 49:04

Hey, listen, I'm not knocking on anybody, but it's just not my bag, it's not where you know, it's not where I'm going to shine, so yeah, so I have to.

:: 49:13

I guess my message and my lesson to myself is to just do it, but be more. Maybe be picky about it or be very cautious about how I do it. I don't know.

:: 49:23

Yeah, it's interesting because I want to also be conscious of, like, how I engage and remind people to get out there when I realize that I'm not doing it myself. So I need to.

I've been thinking about putting an open, call out to you know Facebook and saying if you've got a podcast, I'm making some slots available. So if you think I'd be a fit for your show, just let me know. That could open the doors wide open to just a whole range of shows. You know to maybe, but this is good because it's like because I love giving back to the podcast community and you never know what those could turn into. So I think I might just do that. That might be the easiest way, I think, because of being visible in the space for a while. You know, just see what people want to talk about, because it's hard. It'd be easier than trying to go out and find specific shows and try to engineer it in a way. So I'm kind of I may just let it leave it in the hands of the universe and see what happens.

:: 50:12

What happens what?

:: 50:13

happens to be able to report back. But thank you so much for reaching out. I always look forward to these conversations because I get to meet more of the podcast and community than you know. Even if we were at a podcast conference, we'd have a couple of minutes where I'm like on the floor to chat a little bit, but these are really great opportunities for me to just get to know people.

My girlfriend likes to say this ability to go narrow and deep, as opposed to just wide and shallow. You know, just like just seeing and hide. A lot of people and I'm conscious of the fact that I'm, you know, need to be more intentional with that, and that's why I really love these conversations and I'm glad you're getting value from them, and I appreciate you being a listener as well, because I don't take that for granted, that how much time people have in their days and so that you're making time to listen to the episodes and the dialing value. That's very good feedback for me as well. Thank you.

:: 50:59

Yeah, I love it. Thank you so much for having me on. This has been great yeah.

:: 51:02

I really enjoyed it. So people want to learn more about the podcast and your community and maybe even possibly working with you. Where's the best place for them to get started?

:: 51:10

Yeah, messageinthemiddlecom, you can get to everything. So you can get to the podcast, you can get to the. You know, that's the website. You can get contact me there, but you can find everything there.

:: 51:19

And my marketing hat kicks in and I'm just really appreciative of that domain name. It's so clear, it's so easy to remember and it's tied to the podcast. So I'm just that stuff makes my marketing heart saying so Kudos to you for getting that.

:: 51:32

Oh, but I don't have my knit. Cherry, I don't have my knit.

:: 51:35

Well, I think in some ways there is a niche there.

:: 51:38

I do yeah.

:: 51:39

And then I think your community probably tell you you're doing a great job, so keep it up and looking forward to much success with your show. Thanks again, okay.