331 Lauren Passell - Exploring the Fascinating World of Podcasting

:: 00:00

Lauren Passell, founder of Tink Media, long overdue to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

:: 00:07

Thank you. I've been a listener for what feels like forever, so I'm so happy to be here, thank you.

:: 00:14

You remember the first podcast you ever listened to?

:: 00:17

I think it was the Champs with Neil Brennan and Moshe Kasscher.

:: 00:23

What year would that have been?

:: 00:25

Oh man, 2013, 2012.

:: 00:31

Yeah.

:: 00:31

I got injured and I was on crutches and I needed something. I have no idea how I found it. It was back when I feel like I would just go to like maxfuncom and listen to everything that they had. Like it was people complain about Discovery. Now it was very, very hard to find anything to listen to. I would listen to anything, but I love the Champs. I still miss that show. That was a very good show.

:: 00:54

Did someone introduce you to podcasts or did you just kind of stumble on them?

:: 00:58

I don't remember anyone telling me I was just. I must have been searching for something to do while I was on crutches and maybe in somewhere, I found someone recommending podcasts or maybe it was audiobooks first, I have no idea. It was pre-serial, though. What about you?

:: 01:18

I think it was funny because my journey started because of my love of house music. So I grew up DJing Like I learned how to DJ on vinyl I've still got my turntables and I was listening to this interview show when I got started. A podcast was a DJ mix. I didn't know anything about like people talking, and so people would be like go listen to this DJ's podcast. And I was like cool, and it'd be like a mix. It's just kind of like you know mix tape, vibe. And then there's a website called Resident Advisor where you can go to find out anything that's happening in the world of like electronic music. And they had a podcast. It was called Resident Advisor or something like that, and they would interview DJ's. And I was like, well, this is cool, I get to hear my favorite DJ's for like an hour. You know, normally you just see them play. You can't like talk to them or you don't know anything about them. But then, like you get to hear them like talk about their influences and I was like, oh, this is so cool.

to New Media Expo in January: 2014

I can't imagine what that must have been like very oh wow it was wild, it seems niche now and I can't imagine.

I had been listening to Pat Flynn stuff. So he was there speaking and I was like, oh cool, pat Flynn's here at Amy Porterfield, I think, was there as well, and Scott Stratton, I think, was the other one. So I was like, oh, I wanted to go see Cliff Ravenscraft talk. And then Chris Murphy was like the emcee. He helps the podcast move a lot.

I don't know if you've met Chris before, but he's friends with Jared and he's like who here is a podcast junkie? And I was like, oh, I was like that's me, because I had like a 10 or 15 podcasts on my phone at the time. So then I was like, oh, I went up to Chris afterwards. I was like, what about if I interview like the podcasters? And you know, kind of like I took acting class back in the day, new York and I remember, inside the actor studio and it was like James Lipton talking to actors and I was like, well, kind of like that, but podcasters, and that's. I came back, I registered podcast junkiescom to domain was available and then I enrolled in JLD's podcast paradise.

:: 03:44

I love that story because you really did it, because you loved it Like yeah really we're so so far at the beginning of this, and that's wonderful, I thought it was late.

:: 03:59

It was so funny because I was like, oh, 2014. I'm talking to, like, dave Jackson, elsie Escobar, gary, leland and Jared, and you know it was like an exciting time because that was the first year of podcast movement and it was a Kickstarter and they were trying to raise $10,000 for like a do a little podcasting meetup in a hotel in I think the original it wasn't in Dallas, it was another part of maybe it was in Dallas, I don't know somewhere in Texas. And then that got like they met that super fast and they're like we're going to need a bigger location and they upgraded the hotel and that was like the first podcast movement.

:: 04:37

I love just imagining all these people all over the world discovering it on their own and like figuring out oh there's other people out there like me that love this and coming together. That's so wonderful.

:: 04:49

I thought what was interesting for me at the time was I wanted to meet other podcasters. So I said, obviously I'm going to interview them, but I want them to know who I am. So I'm going to do a video. And video was like super hard at the time because it was the best you could do was Skype with call recorder so you could see the person who wouldn't record the video, but you could at least see them for the conversation and they would eventually record the audio. And that's how I was like if I'm going to spend an hour with this person, I want them to know who I am. So I'd go to the podcast conferences and they'd be like, hey, Harry, nice to see you. Like it was a great conversation we had. And I was like, okay, and then that's how I just started building up visibility in the podcasting space. What was your favorite?

:: 05:26

podcast movement ever.

:: 05:29

I probably have to say the one where I met my partner, natalie.

:: 05:33

Oh boy, go on, that's a good one yeah. That was a long story, probably for drinks at the bar. But okay, okay, I'm not going to forget, I'm not going to forget that you promised me that, yes, we'll talk about that. But yeah, I've I mean I've met so many.

:: 05:47

I mean, I met Zach and rock from a squad cast at 2016 and then became their founding advisor, like in 2017. So that was pretty. I love them so much. I'm so happy for them.

:: 05:59

They just, yeah, they just got acquired by discrips, so that was fun.

:: 06:02

When I found out they were just acquired by discript, I was like uh, they're.

:: 06:07

Good things happen to good people. Like the universe is correct. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, that's a lot of people. Cause.

:: 06:14

I remember those early days I'd be going around to the boots and be like you got to meet the guys at the script Are you doing remote recording? You got to check them out and I was like I was literally like pulling people by the hand over them and so that's. And I think what people appreciated is the fact that they're so down the earth and they're so just like really good guys, like it couldn't happen to nicer guys and uh, and they, they always have had the best like intentions for the community. And I said you guys, you have to come down even though if you're tired. You got to. I would get rock to come down from his room and hang out at the bar. I was like you got to like meet people. You got to like kind of like get to let people know who you are.

And I've always said and like and you know this, you know having a business yourself. When people know the face of an owner and who's behind it, who the team is, they can relate to it. Especially, nine times out of 10, it's going to be a small team. So I'm always I see these new services, especially in podcasting, and the first thing I do is go to the about page and if I don't see an about or a team, it's just like it's a faceless entity and I can't really get behind it or I can't really trust that it's going to be around. You're so right. Yeah, that's a good tip.

:: 07:16

Cause there's a lot of things popping up and you never know are they going to be sticking around. You know, like do they want good things for you? You know, like do they want good things for the community. You know, that's true.

:: 07:30

So just before we started recording we were chatting about where we're at location-wise and I'm in Minneapolis now, but I'm in New York or a group in Yonkers Lived in East Village, I lived in the Upper East Side, green Point, and so my heart is always New York City, but I was there recently and I think I was just realizing how much that pace and I don't know if it's a post-COVID thing, but there's something about the energy that just I feel it now more. And I think you said you're in East Village. I'm curious what that's been like for you and if you've always been there and a little bit of your living situation for the listener.

:: 08:07

I mean, I'm from Ohio but I haven't lived there in a very long time. And when I graduated college, I moved to Rome for a little bit and I wanted to stay there but I couldn't get a job. So I was applying to jobs in New York City and I came into New York City in 2007, thinking that was when like print magazine was a good idea. So I was working in print. That's like Devil Wears Prada days. I was at the bottom of a totem pole where I was cutting up my boss's sandwiches for her. Yeah.

:: 08:39

That's the real thing, then the Devil Wears Prada stuff.

:: 08:42

And this was for Parenting Magazine. You would think it was more low-key, but anyways, I got pushed over to digital media and I was upset at the time because I was like digital media blogs. Ew, this is. I want to be in print and thank goodness that happened.

So, I worked for I was in digital media at that interesting time when nobody cared about it At the magazine they were like, yeah sure, let this young girl run our Twitter account, who cares? Start all of our social media channels. So I got to learn a lot because nobody thought it was going to stick or something. So I was doing all this kind of exciting stuff now that I look back. So I worked for a dating app and I worked for Barnes Noble, I worked for a book publishing house and that was, I guess. You asked me about New York. So I moved to the East Village about 12 years ago I guess 13 years ago and I love it. I lived in numerous places, but I love the energy I love. Whenever someone complains about New York, I'm like that's what I love about New York. I love all of it.

:: 09:47

I lived on Avenue A 7th and A.

:: 09:53

I lived on 11th and A Okay.

:: 09:56

Yeah, and there's that Spanish place on 7th and A. That's really good Yucca, isn't it?

:: 10:02

Yes, yucca Bar, yucca Bar. Yeah, oh, are you talking about? Yeah?

:: 10:06

Yeah. So I was there for 9-11. It was wild, oh wow. Yeah, I was living in that apartment and when I looked out the window every morning I could see the towers. And so you guys wake up in the morning and see the towers, and then I would listen to New York One in the morning at 8.45, because I used to work at downtown by the towers, chase Plaza, and it would be like a 15-minute train ride door to door and I remember turning on the TV at 8.45, and then the first plane that already hit and I looked out the window and I could kind of see that there was smoke and I was like what's happening? This is crazy.

So we ran up to the roof. It was like a fifth floor, five-story building and then all my neighbors were up there and everyone was just like what's going on? Or I was watching, and then I think the second one hit. And then that's when I ran up and we were just on the roof for a while and everyone was just wondering how the heck are they going to get up there to put out that fire? Because it was like 67, 80 stories up and just like someone brought up a telescope and we were just kind of checking it out. And it was surreal. And then fighter jets start flying overhead in New York City and it was just crazy and I think we went back down. And then they came down and then we're like whoa what's happening. And I had co-workers that were downtown, right, because we worked like three blocks away from the World Trade Center and they were on the 16th floor. They said, when it went down, a cloud of smoke came up, 16 stories up and it just went completely black like night. And yeah, it was a crazy day and I'm sure everyone's got stories about what that was like. But it was surreal Because for the next week or two you would see tanks or a Hummer on the streets in New York City and everyone it was like a weird small town vibe, like everyone in New York City was like, hey, how are you doing and how's it going? And blah, blah, blah. And that's rare, right, you don't see that nowadays. But yeah, it was crazy.

And then I had already made plans. I had been making plans to move to Atlanta, to go work with my half brother there, so I was leaving and I kind of felt bad that I was leaving. I was like, oh man, I'm leaving the city and so, yeah, I only was there for a couple of years and then I came back. But it was wow. That's always held a special place in my heart, having lived in there so many times, and I kind of like vibed off the energy.

But I think, as I was telling you, I was there this past week and we were staying at the Rivington Hotel with my partner and I noticed that you would wake. You hear the alarm, you hear the sirens. I just heard a siren in your background. I was like, oh, new York, I love it. But then, when you're there, and then they were drilling at 9 AM at one of the rooms, I'm like what's going on?

And sometimes it feels like it's probably because I've been away and I did the inverse. Now I'm in the Midwest, I'm in just 30 minutes outside Minneapolis, and there's deer, that room on the property, turkeys come by, my partner feeds the birds and the squirrels. I think it takes a while and I don't know if you've experienced this, but when you're away from the city it takes you a while to decompress and get used to the silence. The first thing I noticed when I went to Atlanta is I went to go stay with my brother, and he lived just outside Atlanta. The first night I slept there. It was so quiet, there was not a sound outside and I had trouble sleeping.

:: 13:27

Oh, it was like coming from the city. When I go home, yeah, I'm like why is no one screaming the F word outside my window tonight? Yeah, I feel you about. I think I've lived here for a long time and it will be very difficult to leave. I think I'm going to have to leave at some point. I want a little bit of space. And it's hard living. It's fun, rewarding living, but it's tough. Everything is a little bit harder to do.

:: 13:53

Yeah, do you feel the energy is different after COVID?

:: 13:57

Yeah, I mean, even I live in a very loud, energetic place, but I don't know who will understand this. You will. The SELFIA is no longer 24-hour diner. When that happened I was like, oh man, what it just sound a little bit earlier. You can't get a dollar slice anymore.

:: 14:18

I mean what, yeah, I know.

:: 14:21

Then again, I've lived here so long. I've seen a lot of changes and stuff. It changes when you go three blocks over. Yeah, yeah, I feel in East Village. It's very friendly. It feels like I live in a small town. Sometimes in East Village. Yeah, it still is very wonderful.

:: 14:43

I think the biggest change for me is the space, because living in a space and we have we're actually in like there's four bedrooms here and we have each have a bedroom for our office. Once you have that space, it's hard to go back.

:: 14:59

Oh, I have 100% of my friends that left for COVID. We're like, well, we're coming back. Then they went somewhere and thought, oh, life can be like this. I never left, so I didn't get to a taste of space, but my expectations for space are very low.

:: 15:17

I think once you have that taste, it's going to be hard to go back. You're there 2007, 2009,. You're getting into digital marketing, which has obviously turned out to be a good thing. You told me earlier how you got involved and started listening to podcasting. So kind of start pulling those pieces together. When did you start thinking that this is something you might want to learn more about yourself?

:: 15:41

Well, I remember the moment I was listening to I was listening to Ask Me Another with Ophira Eisenberg I was like there's this moment. I'll never forget it. It was just a moment that happened on mic that I thought whoa, I cannot believe. I just heard someone say that.

We need a place to talk about this. I remember feeling upset that podcast moments were just flying through our ears and we weren't talking about them. I need to talk to someone about podcasts because no one I knew listened to podcasts. That is why I started my podcast about podcasts.

And it was: 2014

My husband made drops like DJ drops on it and then through that, I started my newsletter and I started my newsletter to try to force my family and friends to listen to podcasts. But I thought they would be the only ones that read the newsletter. It turns out they did not read the newsletter, but podcast people started reading it and finding it somehow. I was always a fan of Bello Collective. Those were my first podcast friends. I'm still friends with a lot of them, and those were the people that introduced me to what a wonderful place the space was. One of my jobs was in book publishing and I wasn't on the PR or marketing team, but they knew I love podcasts because I was always trying to get them to sign up for my newsletter, and so the PR team would come up to me and say, hey, can you start booking our authors on podcasts to promote?

:: 17:29

their books.

:: 17:30

And I was like, absolutely, I dream about this all night. And so I started doing that, even though it wasn't my job. And then I went to work for a podcast company for a year and then I started to learn that kind of side of it. And then I called up my old boss from Little Brown at the book publishing company and I said is this a dumb idea for a company? And she was like no. And she was like actually I'm starting my own PR company. And I said will you hire me to learn how to do PR? And she was like sure. So I started working for her.

I got a few clients just because I knew authors. And then the more I started pitching my authors to podcasters, the more I started realizing they needed marketing help and they needed PR help. And they just started asking me for things. So the company has really evolved to just people asking me if I can do things. And it's such podcast marketing is so niche, there's not a lot of other people, there's not tons and tons of people doing it. So it's been really fun because it's a lot of times people coming to me with a problem. And now there's 10 people on Tink and we all work together to come up with really creative ideas. It is so much fun. I feel so lucky. It doesn't feel like work. That's how I got here.

:: 18:45

The end. So talk to me a little bit about the challenges with getting started with the company and not knowing what it would involve, especially in an industry that was brand new. Because I did the same thing. I did podcast junkies for a year. I'm going to hire a business coach and I was like, whoa, people need help with their podcast. So how about if I did this a done for you service, and that was full cast and we've launched over 120 shows since? But early days you sort of are figuring it out as you go along and, to your point, you don't know exactly what the offering is. And so what were you learning? What were people having challenges with early on, and how has that evolved?

:: 19:24

Well, I must say at first I was. I thought Tink wouldn't be real, Like I thought it was kind of. I was kind of messed, like I almost called my company grandma Joyce because I was like this isn't real after my beloved grandmother and I was still applying for jobs, Like I was still trying to get social media jobs, like other writing jobs, and so I didn't. I wasn't brave, I wasn't like I'm gonna. I'm an entrepreneur at heart. I am not an entrepreneur at heart. I'm a terrible entrepreneur, Literally awful. I have no organizational skills.

I don't think I do the dumbest things because I want to. I think I'm very like heart driven, so much as more than business driven. So I never wanted to do this. But the work started picking up and I just had to stop applying for jobs. So honestly, I never thought that. It just kind of I just kept on saying yes and think and honestly, I probably wasn't afraid enough. I thought, yeah, I could do that. I've been working here for a long time, I know a lot of people, I can figure this out.

I've had to figure things out before I can figure this out and my dad loaned me a little bit of money and I never had to use it because it was such a low like I didn't have to really spend very much money, and my first client that reached out to me I'm very fortunate Dani Shapiro of the podcast Family Secrets. She's an author.

So I was introduced to her that way and I think she was the first person to say can you help me with my podcast? And that team was the first person to say can you pitch Dani, can we do some promo swaps? And this whole company has just been me going. I guess no one else.

Sure, I loved doing this and also I do remember the first time when I was at the publishing house I was working on a David Cedaris book and they were like can you get David Cedaris on some podcasts? And I remember emailing on a sale of the sex and money and she answered and I was like what? You're a celebrity and like those small moves in pitching someone and making it happen. I was like.

I can do this. It works Like that was a huge moment and I was like I can do this, I can make this happen. So I think it was just I'm lucky because there just weren't a lot of other people trying and I honestly think I should have been more worried about making it work, but I don't know.

:: 21:51

Well, I think part of it is your experience in the publishing industry, your early entry into digital and the fact that you're in New York where it's kind of like built in that you have to. I mean the cliche, you can make it there, you can make it anywhere, but there's like an energy and like a drive in New York that I think people don't realize if they don't spend a lot of time there. I mean, I worked there several times and it's even just the pace, like even people on the sidewalk, like I would be the person that was like passing people on the sidewalk. You know gotta get to where I gotta get to and it's like you know you always feel like this urgency around everything you're doing.

:: 22:27

Yeah, I don't know if you felt like this when you lived here, but like I think you have to be a little masochistic to live here, and so I'm just so I run on like fast, a little uncomfortable a little. I run on stress. That's why I thrive with the rats and garbage and all the things that people hate about New York. I don't know, I feel like I actually like feel like I don't know this might sound wild, but I feel like work has become more gentle since I entered.

So then I started working in New York, so it's been actually really nice to see people being able to have a little bit more of a life and thinking about their mental health, and I'm like trying to adjust to that because I don't think it was like that when I was working in media. I was really frenzied and feel like I was never home, and that's what I love about my job. Now I thought I would always want to work for the man. I was like sign me up.

I want to have all those things and now I just feel really free to be able to have my own company. But I never thought it's something I wanted.

:: 23:29

Yeah, I think it's not for everyone and I'm going into like my ninth year with the agency and you know definitely ups and downs and it's not for the faint of heart. You have to be comfortable with failure, lots of money wasted on stuff that I probably shouldn't have done before to just kind of make things work. You know paid for coaches and you know there's something to be said about having that freedom to just kind of do whatever you want and I've been remote since 2015. So when COVID hit, I was like, okay, yeah, I know what remote is, it's not a problem, but, you know, just in being able to travel and, if you have to like, do some work on the road, and just having that freedom to be wherever you want and not being tied to a specific location, and also just understanding that, like if the growth of your company is something that you're in control of and your future is in something that you control of, and so I think, just in terms of the relationships I've built, you know, with my clients and people that I've met and just people in podcasting and, I think, other entrepreneurs, it's something that it's.

You know, there's been a couple of moments and I'm like do I want to go back and get like a six-figure job, but then it's like when you think about everything that you're giving up, it always brings me back to this, because it really I like it. I didn't realize how much I love being a business owner and just getting into the nitty-gritty of like, okay, how do we solve this problem? And learn. And then all these things you got to learn. You got to learn marketing, you got to learn designs, you got to learn how to be a good salesperson, like all these things that you have to sort of figure out on your own. And that's the thing. No one's going to come to save you. When you're a business owner, the buck stops with you and you have to figure things out, and there's something empowering about that.

:: 24:59

Yeah, I'm lucky because my team solves a lot of my problems there. I am the first person to be like help everybody, or I ask them their opinions all their time, like I couldn't do it at one. I owe everything to them. They're the best.

But my favorite things are just everything that I do comes back to the company and I feel like I worked in so many jobs where I thought I would get rewarded Like I thought I would work really hard at someone who would say come on, lauren, good job, we're giving you a rate. That doesn't happen. When you work hard and you have your own business, you get it back, and I really like that. And the other thing I like is I feel like I was living in fear for many years. This is like a therapy session. It's like I don't really get stressed anymore because I know there are no podcast emergencies. That's what I am constantly telling my team, and if I see someone on my team's stress, I'm like physically scrape the stress off of you, nothing matters, we can do this together. We can fix everything. And so I don't go to bed with my stomach and nuts anymore because I know it's going to be okay and I have a lot of faith in that.

:: 26:09

I had an old boss who used to tell me at the end of the day, we're not saving lives, and it was really helpful to hear because I would be stressed at work sometimes and I'd have so much on my plate and he's like, look, just do the best you can in the amount of time you got and it's not like we're working triage at the ER. And that was really important and something I needed to hear.

:: 26:33

I was visiting my husband's family, and his dad was an eye, ear throat doctor. Eye ear, nose, some of those things Three of those four things.

And he was telling you about this story that somebody got shot in the throat and he had I don't know. It was a terrible story. And then he tells the story and everyone's like, oh my God. And then we kind of like quieted down and someone said so Lauren, how's work for you? I was like, oh man, I didn't save anybody's life, I should not worry so much. Yeah, I think my work is important, but not that important.

:: 27:06

So now you have someone cutting your sandwiches.

:: 27:08

Kind of Not really. I like to cut my own sandwich.

:: 27:13

So for folks that are the listener that doesn't know a lot about Tink or may have just been seeing you at a podcast conference or the newsletter, what's the range of things that you guys are doing now?

:: 27:26

I think we change the name all the time because, like I said, it has evolved every time someone calls me.

:: 27:31

Basically, and we come up with a new idea.

:: 27:33

But it's we help podcasts grow and we do things like we do a lot of pitching. So we'll pitch our clients to be on other podcasts and to media outlets and we try to work with the platforms to get our client shows on listening apps and we set up promo swaps and feed swaps and other sorts of partnerships. I like to get really creative with partnerships, not just straight up promo swaps and feed swaps.

:: 28:01

Yeah.

:: 28:03

And I mean we have something called podcast therapy that I do with Ariel and this and that. Yeah, I know, you know very well. And it's consulting, but we call it therapy because when you're working with people on their creative projects, it's emotional.

And we have helped people develop entire shows in podcast therapy. Sometimes people come to us with something really specific or sometimes they come and say will you just listen and tell us how we should be marketing this, or give us feedback on the show? And we always have someone from the Tink team taking notes. So there's like tons of notes and that's one of my favorite things we do and we're doing this really cool thing right now. So we had a client who did podcast therapy and she signed up for two hours. We split them up. She did one hour. Usually I like them to take some time in between sessions because there's a lot in the first hour.

So take our notes, you know, start using some of those tips. But she booked them really close together. So on the second time, we were like well, have you implemented any of these? She's like that yet. And I was like you know what? Go away.

:: 29:04

I was like go to your room. No, I was like turn off zoom.

:: 29:08

And so there were three of us on the call me Devon and Ariel and I said for 55 minutes, let's just speed pitch, make a letter in one minute, go through our roll adex. So together the three of us just went nuts and we booked her on eight podcasts and got four write ups for her.

And I was like, oh, this is something. So right now we're trying to do something where you have an hour of podcast therapy with us and then you go away and we see what we can accomplish in an hour and it's I mean, honestly, it's very cool to see it happen, but it's just really fun to be working together like that in this like fast pitched environment. So that's something I'm excited about. But you know, it's we do a lot of other things too.

We have newsletter we all work together on, called podcast marketing magic, and we have a podcast called feed the queue, where we just feed the queue with things audio things, episodes of things that we want. It doesn't have a release schedule, we're just feeding the queue. And we're working on something now called tanks audio delicacies, which is like our end of year best of list of the year, where we reach out to podcasters and ask them to give us their favorite thing that they listen to. We're always working on something where I say what can we work on? That is really fun and takes up tons of time but makes us no money. See, I told you I'm not a good entrepreneur but we're having a lot of fun.

:: 30:32

How did you start thinking about the right people for the team, because you said you're at 10 now and then like, how did you start filling those roles? And then was it just a need that popped up at the time, or were you thinking about where you needed more help in the agency?

:: 30:47

I thought it would just be me and my laptop for a long time. And I got one project that was like pretty big and I had met Ariel at a podcast movement for two minutes, it was like, but in those two minutes she dazzled me, as she does to everyone, and I literally her face was dazzling. She was wearing glitter makeup on which I felt I'd love glitter makeup, and so when I needed some help, I DMed her and I said I don't even know if you remember me, but I need to talk to you. And I called her and I said I have this problem and I think you're the only one that can help me fix it.

And she was like I'll help, Like no questions asked, and we started that was more than three years ago and we've been working together on some things. And then my first other hire was Ann Baird. And I knew that Ann Baird was in the audio space and so I knew that they had familiarity with podcasts. And I emailed them and said you know, are you interested in talking to me about this job? And they said I can't talk. Today I'm in Disney World with my mom and you know my name's my company after Tank. I love Disney and I was like I have no further questions. Ann, you were hired. I had literally no further questions.

And then Devon was the next hire. And Devon I just saw a random tweet. Devon tweeted I wish someone would hire me to write about podcasts. And I DMed her and I said are you interested in working for me? I mean, that's how I know this sounds wild, but I can teach anyone to be a peer person or a marketing person. I can't teach anyone to love podcasts.

:: 32:21

That's the most important thing, we all love podcasts.

Yeah, you either do or you don't.

And if you get it, then you understand, like, how magical it is and I think we all get a taste of that.

And that's what I loved about the podcast conference, this podcast movement, especially in those early days it was like a class reunion and just go back and you wanted to see. And in those early days I was like attending like Joe Pardo's MAPCon and I was going to podcasts and that was going to podcast movement and I went to the outlier conference. I know Ariel helped with that as well. So it was just like all these indie conferences that happened and there's so many now I can't even keep up but it's so interesting to kind of see everyone from around the time and just see familiar faces and then new faces as well. But I think this one, the one thing that I always tell people about podcasting, is like when you're around this community, like everyone just wants to help each other and everyone wants to see each other succeed, and it's something that was new for me when I came into podcasting. It's still the same, I think, every time I grow.

:: 33:17

It's new for me too. Someone I was speaking once and someone got up and said well, why would I do a promo swap, why would I send someone to another show? And I was like I think you're in the wrong business, because these people like to help each other and that is why I love it so much. But, have you noticed a difference in that? To me it's always felt that way, but you've been doing this longer than I have and have you seen a change in how people work together?

:: 33:41

I think maybe now because it's got way, way more corporate and I mean we were at the last podcast movement and the booths for some of these vendors and the Spotify's and even Lipson's gotten fancy now Lipson never used to have the fancy booth but I think it's maturing as an industry so it makes sense that's going to happen.

But I still think there's opportunities for people to have more community engagement, more community feel and I think if you look for it, if you go down the path of corporate and you come into it from that mindset and you come into it from other industries, then you'll probably just stay in that lane and stay and looking for the big shows with the big stars, with the big budgets and who love to spend a ton of money. But there's always that thread, there'll always be that thread and that I noticed with your newsletter as well just that thread of supporting the indie podcasters, because it always feels like there's just new people coming in all the time and they're just really excited and really curious and I'm always looking for ways to get the word out about what new folks are doing and I just use the show to talk to people that I want to talk to and it's fun for me. It's like I don't have agendas with the guests and I think that's a common thread for some of my podcasting peeps that I continue to maintain relationships with.

:: 35:02

I love that so much. I love the indies too. It's funny I just got this catch for an indie show for my newsletter and she wrote at the bottom apologies for being she's pitching you to write about the show. And she says apologies for being a slightly clunky publicist not my natural mode but want to be a bit better at fighting for spaces like this that champion the small, the intimate and the adventures in a world of big, multi-part stories. And I thought I was so moved by that because I thought the indies should be fighting hard. They shouldn't be apologizing for fighting for themselves, because they're making the best stuff and they're making it because they love it.

:: 35:41

And.

:: 35:41

I want those indies to be fighting for themselves and I want spaces that give honor to the people that are working so hard to make these beautiful things. And I have a lot of clients that are indies that, when podcasts were going through a rough time, would say should I be worried? And I was like, I don't think so, because you were always going to make this, you weren't doing anything, you didn't have any motivation other than you were making something you loved doing and you weren't spending a crazy amount of money to do it. You're fine. I think the indies will be fine.

:: 36:14

So you obviously get a lot of folks come to you who are various stages podcasting. I mean, obviously we don't want to. I mean, the basics are the basics and people know what they need to do if they're listening to this or watching this to get started. But where do you see, like podcasters that are just getting started, maybe one or two years under their belt, they've got a rhythm, they know exactly what they're producing, they've got a flow for their production. But now the holy grail is like how do I see that next level of growth? Have you been seeing common trends? Or are there things where you consistently, after speaking to so many podcasters, it's like where they hit that speed bump or things that they could be doing better?

:: 36:57

I mean, I don't know if this exactly answers your question, but something that I see a lot, that is, podcasters that'll say I was on a Buzzfeed list in 2016 and I had plateaued and I'm like, oh no, because you hit that sweet spot. Or like I was featured on Apple in 2013. And it's like you got that huge bump and that's tough to grow from if you got really big from in 2015 or something, so that's something that I think is tough.

But now I think what I try to do, and I think what podcasters should do and it's a lot of work is read and listen to everything, and I don't think a lot of podcasters do that. I ask podcasters what podcasts they listen to and a lot of them say they don't listen, and that's a spicy take for me that I think you have to listen. When I worked in Book Club of Shane, I didn't have an author that wasn't a voracious reader. People fight with me about this all the time, but I think you have to listen to know what other people are doing and how to work with them, because I think growth is all about working with people in creative ways. I really think that's not a very simple answer, but figuring out creative ways to work with others. I think that's what makes me excited about podcast marketing and that's what I think we need to start doing. But ooh, we need more people writing about podcasts.

You know, Like I think you know, I have two newsletters I write for Life Hacker. I need someone to pitch other than myself.

:: 38:30

Well, skye's got a pretty decent newsletter she started as well, and I see a lot of folks talking about the industry and the challenges as a podcast or like staying on top of them, and my biggest connection to what's happening on a day-to-day basis is pod news. So I just because it's an easy list and it's like three or four minutes and then I'll dive into pod news weekly as well, and I feel like that gives me like the whole not every, obviously everything, but I think because it's such a visible, short podcast and newsletter that I think people like send stuff there. So James is getting tons of press releases as well and I think it's one of the ways that I figure out what's happening, what Apple is doing, what Spotify is doing and stuff that I can relate back to my clients Like do you think that there's other skills that podcasters should have? Like for me, I used to think like I'll have podcasting because I don't like writing and I don't like being in front of on camera, in front of YouTube. But then I've sort of changed my stance recently and I started a newsletter since October and every Saturday it goes out and it's just me talking about like my life, like what I do, like I just I'm traveling here, I want to go see my therapist, like my dog passed away, like just sharing my ins and outs and my journey, which I really think now is a big I'm thinking more of as I get older.

Like sharing my life's journey, the highs, the lows, and like people like being inspired to like share their journey as well, cause I think we're all hiding behind these masks and we're behind these mics and these nice mics, and like people think like this is what we sound like in real life and then, like, as you and I know, like when we're in the real world, like there's everything's bumpy and messy and I think sharing that, all those ups and downs, I think it's helped make me a better podcaster, because I'll share the newsletter and I'm like, oh, this is what I created today and I talk about a couple of like episodes I did. So are you encouraging podcasters to sort of get out of that? Podcasting is the only way in the only medium bubble.

:: 40:17

Did you really lose your dog?

:: 40:19

Yeah, we lost our dog four months ago, cockroach manual. Yeah, she was really special, really present, and it was. I had had a dog previously with my ex Yorkie. His name was disco and regular listeners to the show know a lot about him, cause, like, I would mention him a lot and so he lived to about 15 or 16. So he had a great life. And then with my current partner, she had a dog when we got together and so I was only with her for about three years and she was with my partner for nine years.

So she took it harder but incredibly, incredibly smart Cockroach are super smart and she did this thing where you would say her name is Isla and you would say she had all these stuffy toys like little animals, and you say Isla, go get giraffe. And she would look and you'd see her like a eye, kind of like go up for a second. She'd go and she'd get the stuffy. That was the giraffe. And be like Isla, go get a raccoon and she'd drop the. She'd dropped her option. Be like and she'd bring back the stuffy that was the. And I was like she did this for like six or seven times that. We have videos of this. It's wild and I was like what's happening in her mind, that she's putting the words together with like, the smell or like is so fascinating. But she was like, yeah, just very, very present. So yeah, miss her a lot.

:: 41:31

Yeah, I'm sorry, that's the worst, literally. Yeah, I do real, do you? That's just. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, I think transparency, you know, and yeah, I always tell my podcasters, my clients, like you know, especially even things like if you want people to believe your promo for other podcasts.

Your ad reads like they have to get to know you. I don't think. I think if they don't know the real you, then they're going to find something else. Because you're you. You're the only you. So when people say you know there's so much competition, it's like but you are the only you, so you need to let everybody know why they're coming to your show. And it's usually because of the host. And I usually ask people are your numbers like like pretty much the same, because that means they're coming in for the host if they have guests, or is it like guest and topical or something like that I think you want numbers to be pretty same.

You want people to say you know, I don't care what this episode is about, I'm here for Harry, so I'm going to listen to every single thing that he brings me.

So, yeah, a lot of times I think sometimes podcasters are shy to do that and they think it's silly. They're like I'm not going to tell them about my life, but I think that's how when you see these communities grow, you know these like really vibrant communities. That's when the community feels like they know the podcaster, you know it's like a friend. This can feel like friends in lonely times.

:: 43:03

Yeah, and especially after everyone was starting a podcast around COVID. But I think and you've heard this before and this is what I heard when I was getting started this idea of no like in trust, and people need to like build that relationship with you over time and, and I think, if you're not being vulnerable, I think we're all craving that more. I think more and more as, with what's happening in the world and I'm just expanding I'm talking more about, like, my spiritual journey and stuff, because I'm almost repelling people as fast as I attract them, I think, because I'm like, maybe if I'm not for you, that's cool, like find someone who is for you. But I'm just like this is the stuff I'm going to be talking about and if it's a little out there, then at least it'll start to pull in the people into my orbit who are like who get it, or like along for the journey, or curious as well, which I think is fun. Yeah.

:: 43:46

You're building a community and I believe in niche podcasts too. I think that is another thing that we're like. That's I love a niche podcast and I think that's I see those growing too.

:: 43:56

Yeah.

:: 43:56

I think that's a really less niche podcast and that's an exciting space.

:: 43:59

I started my second show in 2020. It's called the vertical farming podcast. You can guess what it's about, but it's crazy because it's generated over 80,000 and sponsorship dollars. I interview CEOs and founders of vertical farming companies. It literally is what it says on the label, like grab the domain, cause it was really strategic about it, lauren.

I was like I want to see if I can create my own podcast client and a sponsor driven show. So I started to kind of like reverse engineering. I saw an industry that was growing. I saw there was VC money, which means marketing dollars because I was like you know, that's where the budgets come from marketing departments. And then I said, well, I want it to be high visibility, so I'm just going to interview CEOs and founders and I said I'm going to call it what it says on the label vertical farming podcast. If you Google those three words, the first thing that shows up in Google I'm leaving this Sunday to go to Germany to speak at an indoor farming conference.

years, starting from zero in: 2020

:: 45:07

Did you like vertical farming before?

:: 45:11

I was being given a book by a client called Abundance by Peter Diamandis and it's about like the future and all these future technologies. And there was a little chapter in there about vertical farming. I was like this is cool, I've heard about this. And I read a book called the Vertical Farm by Dixon Despamia, columbia Professor. I read it in like one day and I was like whoa, this is interesting. I was like I wonder if I could start a podcast around it. I wonder how big this industry is.

I went to like Crunchbase and I was like you start to see all these VCs and I'm like, oh, this is getting a lot of investment money and investments means there's typically, when a company gets funded, like the first thing they're going to spend it on is marketing. And so I had a conversation I started and I said I want it to be high visibility. I was like how best to do that in this interview CEOs? And I was confident because the podcast junkies with hour long interviews, conversational, like I know how to talk. You know I don't have to be the subject matter expert because that's the first thing people ask. So like do you know anything about it? Like I was just passionate and I always tell people there's three people in the podcast conversation the host, the guest and the listener. And I was like I'm just bringing the listener along on the journey. I'm learning as the same time they're learning. And it's almost like the CEOs are more intimidated because they feel like they're going to get grilled and I'm just like no, we're just talking. I just had one today and it's just really conversational.

ech NYC. The tickets are like: 1200

:: 47:01

I love this story so much. Can I interview you about it for podcast? Marketing magic.

:: 47:06

Yes, that would be fun. I love telling you. I just want to get people inspired to kind of really think through, like I got to speak at podcast moon about it last year and I think to your point about this idea of going niche, because it's almost like everything you do is around that topic and I was just because my marketing had is always on. I secured vertical farming, weeklycom, vertical farming, jobscom. So I'm thinking about all these different opportunities.

Now, one of the companies that I interviewed they're just getting started but they might need help on a marketing front and I'm talking to them about being an advisor. So it's like crazy how much visibility you can get if you create these platforms, because these companies, like they have dollars to spend and they'd rather spend it on a niche show and I think it's pretty interesting. So I think anyone who's got a skill in podcasting, if they're interested in going niche, I think should definitely consider it, because there's something I think about all these different topics like cellular proteins and climate tech and all these like super niche industries that are getting a ton of like funding and all these new companies popping up and I'm like man, I don't have enough time to chase down all of these opportunities.

But it's just a podcast about that where you're just giving away ideas, charge people for it.

:: 48:22

No, I feel like I just told my story and I've kind of felt like I was in a niche because there's not a lot of podcast marketing. But you went beyond that. You're like not just podcasts vertical farming. And maybe you had a similar experience where you're like nobody else is doing this, so now I'm going to be like doing it Like it's it feels familiar to me. I love that story.

:: 48:45

When you think about, like, where we're going as an industry, you know, do you ever get burnt out? It keeps you, keeps you motivated.

:: 48:53

I'm a child. I'd never get burned out about this. I feel excited every day. I think it's because of the people, it's because of my team. I really yeah. Also I feel lucky because you know I usually work with people, for I mean some clients I've been working with for years, but a lot of it is for a launch of a show or something like that, so it's always different you know yeah and so I'm always learning something new.

Like none of my days are the same, yeah, and I think there isn't like cycles like in my old jobs would be like, oh, it's this time of the year, we're doing this. I don't feel that way about my job.

I feel like everybody, every client I have is on a different schedule. Every client I'm having has a different goal. And also I love podcasts. So me getting to listen is part of my job and I find such joy in it. I'm telling you this is gonna sound, I sound like such a dork, but like I Jump out of bed in the morning because I want to see what shows have been refreshed overnight, like I wait to listen. So that's huge that I love what I'm working on so much.

:: 50:06

Do you find that the time that you have to listen to shows has gotten like smaller because of, like, all the other stuff you have on your plate, or you just always find time to listen? I?

:: 50:16

Get up very early and that's my time to myself. I listen pretty usually kind of fast. My brain is a little broken, but on the week, during the week I make up, I turn my husband into a podcast listener because it's a requirement If you're going to spend time with me. So During the week I make a playlist of things I think I like. And I make that playlist for him and then on Saturday and Sunday he like DJs the playlist, so he picks from that.

And we listen together, but he has to listen at 1.0 speed, so that is true love. I listen in one place speed with him.

:: 50:48

That's hilarious, yeah, I mean I can listen at stuff at one and a half and two and I realize like it's when you listen to like even Pod news. I'm like I hear I'm used to James talking really fast.

:: 50:57

Yeah.

:: 50:58

Person. I'm like why are you talking so slow?

:: 51:00

Yeah, there's certain shows that I slow down, but yeah, of course.

:: 51:05

Where do you feel we're at? Because you know, if people are just getting in and when you think about that number, they keep throwing around. I know they throw on the four million number and that's just like all shows and then like the couple of hundred thousand, which is like active shows, you know, and people looking from the outside who think like, oh, it's like saturated. You've every topic has been covered and all you know, everything you can podcast around about has already been done. Like what would you say to folks coming in from the, from the outside, looking at it from the outside, who think, like you know, there's nothing really new happening in podcasting?

:: 51:36

Well, I would say you can cover a topic that's been covered a lot, but if you do it your own way and also do it really well and I mean my favorite podcast right now is the podcast that makes me go oh, I didn't know that could be a podcast so Well, recently I mean this was like actually a couple years ago but one of my favorite shows of all time is called Lizzie Cooper Mince in your hands and she's not doing it anymore, but every week she would pick two things to do get a piercing or get a job at Coldstone Creamery, stuff like that and she would put on her Instagram and let her. She's a comedian, she's hysterical and she's a poet. She's so good with words.

:: 52:17

That's so funny, and her.

:: 52:20

Fan base would vote for which one she would do, and she would do it so funny.

And then the next episode she would bring on other comedians to help her decide, and so we're all shaping her life and actually she had to stop the show because it was getting out of control with like her life was just out of control, but that kind of thing, the thing is the kind of thing that gets my attention. I'm also really enjoying this podcast called but out baby right now, which is this woman found this original screenplay to dirty dancing and she's just going scene by scene but like really in minute detail. But she knows her stuff, so it's other people have done stuff like this.

It is well Done. There's like original music, really niche interviews with people about small things, or like details like this glass was on the table, like this because of this, like. But the funny thing is she's making it herself. She's an indie podcaster. It doesn't have a. It's not like it's not coming out every week. Episodes come out when they come out, so guess what I am reading about every single episode. I have a party every time there's an episode. I'm constantly refreshing.

I think she's not doing this on purpose, but it is Creating this Excitement for this podcast. That is accidental. I'm loving it. I can't wait each other's. Every single time I get excited.

:: 53:38

Very cool. Well, I kind of felt this was going to be all over the map, Because we're just podcasters talking about podcasting, but I usually have a couple of questions asked towards the end. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?

:: 53:49

I have been a vegetarian for 33 years no meat, no fish. Yeah and I have been for a year thinking about eating Clams and oysters because I've done research and I don't think they have central nervous systems and they filtered the water. So I recently ate a clam. Now it's a very big for me. I really liked it.

:: 54:17

Yeah, we've, we're mostly.

I mean I'm I'll eat not a lot of red meat and my partner eats hasn't touched red meat in like 10 years.

But we found a Company that's in Hawaii called Maui Newie and what's happening is that in that part of the island it's overrun with this population deer.

It was like a hundred thousand deer on that one, because I think they was brought there as a gift and they have no natural predators there, so they're just completely like overtaken the island so they basically like let them live a full life and then they have like hunters with like night vision, single shot, you know, one shot kill, and they get dressed on the island and so we get like a package of that and such like. So it's very sustainable, it's not factory farming, it's none of that, and so it's interesting like there are opportunities to kind of experiment with stuff that you know when you think about it like that's they have to call that population down right, because it's just overrun, so and they send out a newsletter every week about talking about like a Sustainable stuff that they're doing on the island, stuff like that. So I think it's interesting and more and more people are like experimenting, like you are, with like different ways of like trying out Different different methods.

:: 55:23

I wish everyone would think of something like that, where it's just like what can I do? That's a little bit different and I actually I Call myself a calling girl. If any podcast is like Colin, if you have a story about this, before they even finish the prop, I'm calling it and I called into this podcast name called Climb of Wars about yeah. The earth and vegetarianism, all the stuff. And I I said, may I eat oysters? What do you think? And they told me I could. So that is why I made the decision.

:: 55:52

What is the most misunderstood thing about you? I?

:: 55:56

Think people think that I am really social and I really like to be by myself and I Believe that nobody cares if you don't go to the party and I'm very happy. I have the opposite of FOMO I get excited about. I want to be invited but I don't want to go. Generally, I will say the exception is podcast movement and all of those conferences. I turn into this person that wants to really be With everyone and that's a real moment. I really I grew up an only child. I was alone. I need to be alone.

I need privacy.

:: 56:34

Yeah well, yeah, it's almost like. Yeah, like I said, it's like more like a high school reunion. We go to podcast movement, so I think we're all just excited to see each other. Yeah Well, I'm glad we got a chance to catch up.

I know we see each other at the conferences and I think what, what I love about my show is this like, oh, I want to go a little bit deeper with some of the podcasting peeps and that I've just sometimes you know there's friends that I have that we just see each other in passing and you know how it is at those conferences. You're talking for like five minutes and then like someone else comes by and then you get distracted. You're like I'll meet you downstairs or we'll meet downstairs at the bar at the party, and like that never happened. So it's it's nice to be able to slow down and just leave and learn more about you, because I know we've like been in the same Orbit podcasting orbit for years now and I'm just like. I'm like wow, how come Lauren hasn't been on the show? And I'm like, maybe because I haven't invited her, so let's get her.

:: 57:21

Well, now I know so much more about you and vertical farming. And wait, what's Something that people get wrong about you?

:: 57:28

I think it is the I'm fine that I'm selectively extroverted, you know. So if you see me at the podcast movement and if you get me to karaoke, I'm the one on stage singing rappers delight and I love kind of like you know, goofing around and it's part of that DJ you know mindset of just like being like the energy of the party and controlling like the vibe of the party. But I realized like when I'm back home I'm just like just like reverting back. I just want to just kind of like it's a lot.

You know, even when I have multiple interviews during a day, I found, like you know, my energy wanes and I have to like sometimes cancel the interviews. I'm just like I just don't have the energy just to jump on a call with this person for like an hour. So I'm just like and I want to make sure I'm honoring like my guest time. But I think because I get older, I think I find like I'm less Eager to like be out and just like constantly hanging out. And I think even at the last podcast movement I was we were like more selective about just having like deeper conversations with people, even if it's on the chairs outside the party, as opposed to just like what my girlfriend likes to say, is that going narrow and deep, as opposed to like wide and shallow. It's like hi, hi, hi, hi, hi in it because I realized, like as I get older, realize that how draining that is energetically.

:: 58:44

I love getting older and figuring this stuff out. Though, I'm serious, I love I'm Sign me up. I love it. Wait, what's your sign? What's your birthday?

:: 58:52

October 10th Libra.

:: 58:54

Okay, what's your karaoke song?

:: 58:57

It's typically rappers delight, yeah, and I always forget every time I do that there's actually three rappers in that song and I'm doing all of them, so I'm like completely out of breath by the time this song is.

:: 59:09

You need a whole crew? Yeah, well, thank you for having me. This is a treat.

:: 59:14

Yeah, hopefully, Anything I can do to help share your cause, your story and chat about any marketing stuff that I've learned as well.

:: 59:24

I'm gonna interview you about vertical farming. Yeah and I'll see you in LA.

:: 59:30

Evolutions. I Think so, yeah, it's. Yeah, it's gonna be an LA this time. So it's what is it? February, all right, joe.

:: 59:37

March, march.

:: 59:38

Yeah, it's on the calendar, so I think I'll definitely be there. Where do you want to send folks to learn more about all the wonderful things you're doing? I?

:: 59:47

think tinkmediaco or Padcast the newsletter, that sub stack. Calm, those are my two. I mean everything's at tinkmediaco.

:: 59:55

You can just say that yeah, and if you're not subscribed to Lawrence newsletter then you're really missing out. If you have any interest in growing your show, so highly recommend people do that. So we'll make sure all those links are in the show notes. Thanks again for everything you do for the podcast community. You and your team are an incredible resource. You know I don't find enough time to keep up with everything, but I get the newsletters. I'm like, oh my god, there's so much information in here, what it's like. I guess that's set aside but you know, for anyone is looking interested in getting started in growing their shows and Definitely gonna keep pointing them in your direction. So I appreciate everything you do for the world of podcasting.

:: 00:34

Right back at you. Thank you I.