318 Tim Villegas - Podcasting Playground: Where Inclusion and Passion Collide

Harry Duran: 0:00:00

So Tim Villegas, director of communications at the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and host of Think Inclusive and the co host of the Trailer Park podcast. Thank you so much for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

Tim Villegas: 0:00:14

It is my pleasure, Harry. Thanks for having me.

Harry Duran: 0:00:17

Wasn't sure if I'd get those all out.

Tim Villegas: 0:00:19

You did. You did great.

Harry Duran: 0:00:21

Rehearsing a couple a couple of minutes before we went live, so, so much to cover there. And thanks for reaching out via email. Looks like you got connected with Ariel, so maybe let's start there. Ariel is obviously a friend of the show, and for those that are just listening at home or using Squadcast, she's the community manager at Squadcast. I'm the founding advisor for Squadcast, so we're big fans, and I'm just wondering how you two got connected.

Tim Villegas: 0:00:47

So we connected like most people connect with Ariel over Twitter. Okay? And I probably was just kind of stalking her Twitter account like many of us do, and she has great ideas and is always prompting the community to think and to expand their podcasting knowledge. And so I'll have to try to find the original tweet, but basically she was like, what if there was a podcast that just featured trailers? And I was like, oh, that's a great idea. We could call it the trailer park. And she's like, I love that name. And so a few people responded in the thread, and I think I DM'd her. And I was like, hey, listen, I'm down for trying something new. What do you think? What do you need? And I could put together like a submission form that could be like a first step. And so I just basically copied the submission form that I used for Think Inclusive over and made it appropriate for what we were doing, and then it just kind of took off from there. It was a slow burn. So I think this idea came together probably in the fall of last year, sometime maybe even the summer.

Tim Villegas: 0:02:06

And then it wasn't until I think January or February when we really started rolling with it, and it came together pretty fast after that.

Harry Duran: 0:02:15

I think anyone who's been podcasting for any period of time realizes there's no shortage of ideas that would make for good shows. There's probably another show that will be the graveyard of uncreated podcast ideas or something to that effect, because I know that even since I started this show in 2014, you would just always randomly pop up with an idea. And obviously I know that Ariel is good about soliciting ideas or talking about ideas because it seems like there's no shortage of creativity in podcasting when it comes to Ariel. I think we even talked about a couple of ideas at some point. So it's great to see that some of them actually have legs and that you've been able to get that up and running. But let's go back to your original podcast journey because this is obviously not your show. So talk about the origins of Thinkinclusive.

Tim Villegas: 0:03:03

Sure. So I started thinkinclusive in 2012. I started on my dining room with my MacBook Pro and a Logitech headset and a Skype account. And I had always wanted to podcast. In fact, I studied, I took classes in college. I'm not going to overstate myself on audio production because I was like a radio wannabe. I started really learning about sound and audio production because I was like a musician in bands. And so late high school, early college, I learned how to work Daws and Pro Tools was the main thing that I learned, and I just loved it. And when I heard that there was a thing called podcasting, I had always like, I need to do this. I need to figure out a way that I can do something like this. And I'm sure any podcaster who ever listened to this American Life, it was so influential in what I thought podcasting should sound like and what it could do as far as changing your mind and moving you emotionally. And so I started to write and blog around that time in 2012. And I'll back up just a little bit. My professional experience really is as a teacher. So I started teaching in 2003, and I taught mainly students with disabilities.

Tim Villegas: 0:04:39

And so I taught in special education classrooms and in different schools. I'm from? Originally from California. From Pasadena. And that's where I started at Pasadena Unified School District. And so when I moved to Georgia in 2008, I needed an outlet for learning about how to support people with disabilities. And I was learning a lot about inclusion and inclusive education. And for those of you who don't know or don't realize, there's kind of these two separate systems of education in public schools in America. Well, and in the world, but especially here, if you have a child with a disability, especially like a significant one that's significantly impacting them, like autism or down syndrome or any other intellectual disability, their educational experience is vastly different from a typically developing person. So if you have a learner that has that kind of profile, they're typically segregated in a special education class, usually not given the same kinds of curriculum or materials. And the quality of teacher can be sometimes suspect. And so I was definitely one of those teachers. I went to school to become a teacher, but I actually got a job before I finished my credential because in California, there's a shortage of teachers, and so they're like, okay, well, you meet the minimum requirements. All right, here you go. And so I learned a lot on the fly on my job, and so I felt like I was doing my best and stuff.

Tim Villegas: 0:06:17

But when I moved to Georgia, I was able to connect with some people, like outside consultants, who really mentored me in inclusion. And so they basically helped me along my mindset and my practices on how to include my students with disabilities in regular classes and help them learn and have it being meaningful. And so once that happened, that changed my whole world, and I just needed to know more about what this inclusion thing was. So here we are coming up on 2011, presenting at a conference, and I realize there's this whole world of educators who want to do the same thing as me. And I start tweeting. I had a Tumblr account. I started blogging. I started guest blogging. I started podcast. And I was like, wow, this is life giving. Like, this is what I want to do when I'm not teaching. This is what I want to do. And so it was really just having all that background knowledge with audio production and then this passion for learning a new thing, this inclusion thing, and figuring out what it was. I just went and I started emailing and tweeting everyone and like, okay, will you be on my podcast? Will you be on my podcast?

Tim Villegas: 0:07:37

And so it started off pretty slow. I don't know what your experience was, Harry, but when I first started, I produced maybe one or two episodes, and then I was like, oh, my gosh, that's a lot. So it took long breaks, and it wasn't until about 2018 that I really was doing anything consistent. And then by 2020, I had been teaching for 16 years in public schools, and I decided I needed to look outside because philosophically, we weren't lining up with where I was at, with me advocating for inclusion, for learners with disabilities in my job. We weren't seeing eye to eye, and I felt like I need to look elsewhere. And so I'm very fortunate to be able to join the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education as their communications director and bring all of that with me. So I brought the blog and the podcast, and so now that is part of my job, and I'm living the dream, really.

Harry Duran: 0:08:41

Is what I'm doing so much to unpack there? So let's go back to your decision to become a teacher. Like, what inspired that or what drove that?

Tim Villegas: 0:08:49

I did not want to be a teacher, Harry. I wanted to be a counselor. I wanted to be some sort of marriage family therapist or, like, a counselor I went to.

Harry Duran: 0:09:03

Why is that?

Tim Villegas: 0:09:04

Well, we could have therapy right now. That's okay. Let's do it. It's funny because I have a 17 year old, almost a senior. She's a junior, and we're actually looking at colleges, and she is interested in psychology. And so it's funny because both my wife and I have a background in psychology. And the joke is, it's like, you really only become like you only go into psychology because you're trying to right the wrongs of your upbringing. And so my wife and I are like, what did we do? What did we do? So that's actually a complicated question, I think, for me, on why I wanted to be a teacher, because my parents were not educators. My dad is in cybersecurity information security. My mom actually eventually became a social worker, but at the beginning, when I grew up, she worked for department stores in retail and human resources and stuff like that. So I did not have any sort of model at home that was wanting to be an educator. What really piqued my interest in the first place was one of my last classes in my psychology degree. It was called the Psychology of the Exceptional Child.

Tim Villegas: 0:10:28

And I went in thinking, like, oh, I'm going to learn about gifted kids. This is great. This will be super easy. And I learned that there was this whole world called special education and assessment and diagnoses, and I went to private school. So in private school, there was no such thing as, like, special education. Looking back, there were certainly students who probably would qualify for services if they went to a public school, and I'm sure that they received something extra, but I had no idea what that was. It was not in my vocabulary. I had no sort of idea of what that looked like. And so when I went to this class and one of my assignments was to visit a special education classroom, a local one, I went in and I visited, and it was what we would now call like a resource classroom, like a math resource. So this would be for a small group of students who maybe had some learning disabilities and one teacher who was working on specific math strategies to help them help them learn about it. And at the time I thought, oh, this is strange. Like, what is so different about what they're doing here that they have to do it in this separate space? But I didn't really think about it until way later. It was just like an assignment that I had to do. And so then after I graduated with my psych degree, there's not a whole lot of things you can do with the psych degree.

Tim Villegas: 0:12:11

So I found a job as a behavior therapist for children, young children with autism. Okay, again, had no experience working with kids on the spectrum. And I found that I went to the weekend training that they give you, and I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. And then when I started working with families in their homes, because I mostly worked with, like, three and four and five year olds, so they were like, pre going into school. And then I also did some in school therapy. I was like, this is really cool, and I really like it, and I think this is what I want to do. And then at the time, too, I was playing music. So at the Tim, I wanted to be like a rock and roller.

Harry Duran: 0:13:01

What instrument do you play?

Tim Villegas: 0:13:03

My main instrument is the bass guitar, but I know how to play piano and guitar. Okay. I pretended to sing.

Harry Duran: 0:13:13

Did you actually start up any bands?

Tim Villegas: 0:13:15

I did, I was in a number of bands, yeah.

Harry Duran: 0:13:16

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:13:17

In high school, college, and post college.

Harry Duran: 0:13:20

And what were some of the names of those? Because I always think they're super creative at the time when you're when you're starting them up.

Tim Villegas: 0:13:25

Oh gosh. So in high school we were called the Daily Special.

Harry Duran: 0:13:29

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:13:30

And we were like a punk SCA band. Okay. Because everyone was in a SCA band back in the late ninety s. And then in college I was in a band called Frank Scares Me.

Harry Duran: 0:13:40

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:13:41

We were like emo. And then post college I was in a band called Paloma and we actually changed our name to Roger Moon. But we were kind of like radio Ahead wannabes. I played a little bit of keys bass guitar in most of those bands. Yeah. So that's I was like we were gigging and practicing and that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to play music. I lived in La. And I gave it a real good go. And then I met my wife in Silver Lake, which I found out that Harry used to live in Silver Lake.

Harry Duran: 0:14:22

Yeah. And also used to live in Atlanta.

Tim Villegas: 0:14:24

Oh, you lived in Atlanta too? Oh my gosh.

Harry Duran: 0:14:28

The connections in Kendler Park.

Tim Villegas: 0:14:31

Kendler park? Oh yeah. That's like right in Atlanta.

Harry Duran: 0:14:35

Yeah, right in Atlanta. At the time I was working for ETrade and I had a job in New York and then they had a position open up, a director position. But the only way to get that promotion was to actually go down and run that. It was the customer service reporting division. So I'd manage a team of like eight folks and I would travel to Alpharetta. So I was going against the reverse commute, but it was fun. Had a group of friends down there as well, so yeah, fond memories of Atlanta and the Flying Biscuit as well.

Tim Villegas: 0:15:02

Oh, the Flying Biscuit is amazing.

Harry Duran: 0:15:05

Yes.

Tim Villegas: 0:15:08

So I live in a suburb of Atlanta, Marietta, so I'm sure you've passed it.

Harry Duran: 0:15:13

I do know Marietta very well. At least you get a little bit warmer weather there than I'm currently in Minneapolis, so it's definitely a shift. But what do you like most about living there?

Tim Villegas: 0:15:25

Well, the Cost of living is probably my favorite. And it is so lush and green and beautiful. And despite it raining all the time, the air is really clean. So like in La. You would roll out of bed and not be able to see the mountains. But here, I mean, there are no mountains, but at least it's just blue sky. And also I happen to like the thunderstorms. It's just such a difference. Growing up in Los Angeles, you know, if it rained it was just like this yucky socked in gray rain when it did yeah. But in the south, it's the humidity and the thunderstorms and the lightning, and it can be pretty beautiful sometimes.

Harry Duran: 0:16:16

It's an experience. Yeah, totally. Yeah, it's very nice. And I think it's a nice place to definitely visit and just a reminder of how much to appreciate the climate you're in. And there is no perfect one either, because I know when I lived in La. There'd be days, forget days, months with no rain. And coming from New York, it was so bizarre to just have that stretch of time with a little it would rain for like, I think, like 15 minutes and be like, Is that it? And then you have these reservoirs and quote unquote, rivers that are completely bone dry and you're trying to imagine water ever running through them. So I think every place has its pros and cons. So to kind of learn to make the best of where you're at.

Tim Villegas: 0:16:58

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. If anyone knows the joke of the La river, just Google that.

Harry Duran: 0:17:06

Yeah. It's so funny when you see it on that Google map and you see the blue and you're like, oh, and you look concrete. But I think recently, with some of the crazy weather stuff that's been happening, a couple of those actually filled up with water recently.

Tim Villegas: 0:17:20

Yeah, it happens. They built it for some reason. So it must have, like, at one point they needed it.

Harry Duran: 0:17:28

Yeah. Not just for a scene in Terminator.

Tim Villegas: 0:17:31

Oh, yeah, exactly.

Harry Duran: 0:17:33

So let's talk about how you were learning all about inclusivity learning about special needs. I mean, growing up as a child in the 80s, if you think about the special needs program, it was just like there was a certain stigma, I guess, if you think about it, attached to those kids, and it was almost like it was them, and they were seen as someone that had a challenging time and just needed super extra care. And I don't know that there was a lot of awareness in terms of how to speak to their specific needs, which I think is something that you were alluding to. And so is that the idea when you started the show, to start to tell some of these stories? Or what was the thoughts when you first started incorporating everything you were learning as a teacher, everything you were learning with all this, with training into the show?

Tim Villegas: 0:18:21

Well, I was really looking for a show that would meet me and what I wanted to know about people with disabilities and where's that curiosity come from.

Harry Duran: 0:18:35

Why was it something that was really something that was driving you?

Tim Villegas: 0:18:39

So I'm not sure how unique this is, but I don't have any immediate family members with disabilities. My brother in law is autistic, and I have a cousin who has an intellectual disability, but nobody that I didn't don't have any brothers or sisters or parents. And also my experience in school, I didn't have that experience as well. And I always have a hard time answering this question, but I think the best answer is that when I got into schools and realized the vast difference, the vastly different educational experience, someone with a disability, especially a significant disability, has it just felt wrong. Like, Wait a minute, this is not right. There should not be two different educational systems in our schools. There shouldn't be. And the only difference is where you live. Because I can tell you because in my job, I'm very fortunate to be able to visit and speak with school districts that are inclusive, that include all learners, that don't have disability specific programs, that value and create a sense of belonging in their schools. And so the only difference between some districts in Maryland or in the state of Washington or in Oregon or wherever these districts are, is zip code. That's it. So if a family here in Georgia wants their son or daughter to be included, there's a good chance that that district won't do it. Because historically, they just haven't done it. It's not because they can't. It's because they have chosen not to, and also not to progress.

Tim Villegas: 0:20:46

Because there's a whole host of research and educational practices that say this is the best thing for students. Not just for students with disabilities, but for everyone. But if they lived in Cecil County, Maryland, or if they lived in Westland Wilsonville, Oregon, they would be included. So it's like that whole idea. Injustice, I think, is really what drives me, and it's driven me since the very beginning. It's only gotten stronger as I've learned more and more about how our educational system works. So that's really what gets me up in the morning, what I think about when I go to bed.

Harry Duran: 0:21:27

That's incredibly inspiring. Thank you for sharing that. How did you think about organizing the show? Did you have a format in mind? Did you know it was going to be interview based? Did you have a list of folks that you wanted to speak to talk about those first early years?

Tim Villegas: 0:21:41

Yeah, so I think that I did have a list of dream guests that I wanted, and I wrote it all down and I emailed them or I tweeted at them. And what was actually surprising to me, Harry, was how many people got back to me because I just wasn't expecting it to be as easy as it was. It was actually pretty easy to get people on the podcast. And I'm not exactly sure why. Maybe because even in 2012, podcasting was still kind of like not something everyone did, even though it felt like it. So I think it was still novel. So I was very fortunate to be able to speak with people about that. And as far as formatting, I've listened to some early episodes, and it's just kind of a standard interview format where I do an intro and there's some music and we do the interview and I do an outro and there you have it. The only really difference is I edit my interviews now.

Harry Duran: 0:22:47

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:22:47

I used to just kind of hit record and whatever happened, happened. And now I'm much more NIT picky about trying to make things flow and hopefully try to tell a story within. And also I'm obsessed with narrative podcasts. And that is another thing that I'm working on right now, too, is I'm in the middle of production of a narrative podcast called Inclusion Stories. It's a five part series where and I'll talk about that in a minute. Throughout the episodes of Think Inclusive, I will produce every now and again, kind of more of a narrative based episode. In fact, the one that's going to be dropping on Thursday is one of those. So I was spending a little bit more time scripting it out and editing and stuff like that.

Harry Duran: 0:23:40

So how many episodes are we at now?

Tim Villegas: 0:23:42

Well, it's interesting, somewhere between like 91, hundred something. I think we're getting close to 100. I had a few episodes that I took out because they were no longer they weren't really Think Inclusive episodes. They were like other things that I made. So I don't really count those. So I don't think we've hit 100 yet, but pretty close. I told you before, it was just like two or three a year, and then it was like six, and then it was ten, and then it was 18. And so in 2020, I was doing bi weekly. And then right, as it stands now, or three or four times a month. And that first week of the month, I'm reserving for like feed drops and stuff like that. Okay, so we're much more prolific now.

Harry Duran: 0:24:33

Have you kept the same trailer that you recorded and you started the show?

Tim Villegas: 0:24:37

No, I actually took down my trailer because I need to redo it, actually.

Harry Duran: 0:24:43

Was that because of the new show?

Tim Villegas: 0:24:45

Partially, yeah. I did do a trailer for like season seven, I think.

Harry Duran: 0:24:51

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:24:51

And that trailer was up for a long time, but I was like, I'm just going to pull that down. The other thing that I want to do that I haven't yet done is do an episode Zero. Because what I find is people are listening to my first few episodes still. Like, I look at my downloads, I'm like, man, I need to have something at the very beginning to be like, hey, this is what you're going to experience. These are the kinds of people that you're talking and you actually asked me this question is what kinds of people and how I wanted to construct the episodes. But I really wanted a cross section of educators who were doing the work of inclusion people with disabilities so they can share their experience whether they were included or not. Because in my thinking, the experts on disability are actually people with disabilities. And that's something that I learned right away because all I had ever learned about disability were in books.

Harry Duran: 0:25:54

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:25:55

So really centering the voices and the stories of people with disabilities and then a lot of families. So families who were struggling or advocating for their children to be included. And so I wanted those stories as well. So those are kinds of the main people I look for for guests. And that's basically still what I do. But the Ten is a lot bigger.

Harry Duran: 0:26:21

Yeah. Did you make a distinction between a trailer and episode zero?

Tim Villegas: 0:26:26

I did.

Harry Duran: 0:26:27

That's interesting. I've always considered them one and the same. So how do you distinguish them?

Tim Villegas: 0:26:32

Well, I would say a trailer or a teaser, as Ariel likes to say sometimes is kind of like a promotional two to three minute produced audio segment where maybe you're pulling in some audio clips of guests. Maybe it's just you talking about what to expect. But an episode zero in what I'm imagining, it, if we're thinking inclusive, is almost like a solo episode where I just go like, hey, this is my story. This is who I am. This is why this is important to me. And if you stick with me and you listen to these episodes and you figure out what's important to you and what you want to learn about, this is what hopefully you'll get. So that's my idea of an episode zero.

Harry Duran: 0:27:25

So you think of episode zero most like as your inaugural episode, but you wouldn't designate that in your podcast host as your trailer episode.

Tim Villegas: 0:27:33

I would not, no.

Harry Duran: 0:27:34

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:27:34

No. And the reason why is because when I look at my analytics, I see that people are listening to that first episode. So rather than listening to that first episode I have with my very first guest, they're listening to me.

Harry Duran: 0:27:49

Yeah. And then I've also heard best practices is if you do New Seasons, if you just want to refresh, it is helpful to rerecord the trailer because depending on the podcast app, Apple podcast spotify, they prominently show or display the trailer if it's designated a trailer and your podcast host. So I think even as I'm thinking about it, as I was leading up to this conversation and seeing what you guys are doing with TPP, I was like, I don't think I've touched my trailer for this show since recording, which is what a lot of podcasters say as well. So it is inspiring because I do have a second show called the Vertical Farming Podcast, and I have to listen to that one as well because I do want to submit both of them to trailer park podcast as well for you guys to have a listen to and give feedback on. And I'd love that.

Tim Villegas: 0:28:39

So vertical farming. So are you familiar with vertical harvest in Wyoming?

Harry Duran: 0:28:44

Yes.

Tim Villegas: 0:28:45

So here's a connection. Harry Jen Tennekin is a filmmaker that made a film called Hearts of Glass, and Jen was on my podcast years ago leading up to the film premiere and Hearts of Glass features Vertical Harvest in wait, is that what it's called?

Harry Duran: 0:29:08

Jackson? Yes.

Tim Villegas: 0:29:10

Jackson. Yeah. And they employ people with intellectual disabilities.

Harry Duran: 0:29:13

I know.

Tim Villegas: 0:29:14

Yeah.

Harry Duran: 0:29:14

No, yeah, he has the CEO. Yeah, she's been on my show already and she's coming on in a couple of weeks for round two.

Tim Villegas: 0:29:21

Oh, that's fantastic.

Harry Duran: 0:29:22

We're friends. I've gotten to meet her in person at some of these indoor farming conferences. She's an amazing human being.

Tim Villegas: 0:29:27

Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. So I still am in touch with Jen, but I've never made it out there, so maybe one day.

Harry Duran: 0:29:36

Well, it's so funny to talk about all these different things. That's why I've been open about all the things that I'm working on, like this other show, because you never know the way these paths connect and what people are working on nowadays. And so the fact that there is a connection between you and Nona and my show and someone that you've spoken to on your show, which is really fascinating, it's always fun to kind of see all the ways that the world of podcasting connects us all together, which I think is amazing.

Tim Villegas: 0:30:01

I know, right?

Harry Duran: 0:30:02

How have you grown as a host over what it's been now since 2012 with your show? Like, all these episodes, the ups and downs of learning what works, what doesn't, do you find you're more comfortable in your role as podcast host now?

Tim Villegas: 0:30:18

Much more comfortable. I think that I like to script. I script almost everything. Okay, so not during my interviews. Usually I have a list of questions and I've always done that, but I think that it's always been helpful for me to have a list of questions and then if we throw it out, that's fine. Most of the people that I talk to, they're not podcasters, they're professors or parents or people with disabilities. And so they really want to be guided on what to do and a lot of them are nervous. So I typically am more structured in my interviews. And at the beginning I think I was more loose. But now, especially on the front end, I try to make the guest feel as comfortable as possible because I know that that will yield a really good interview for me. I tried to be when I would do like, my production and do my intros and outros, I tried to be more like unscripted and I hated it. I think some people are really good at that and I'm just not. So I think towards the middle of the production process. So after a few years, I just started scripting out all my intros and outros, and now that's what I do. It's just my standard practice.

Tim Villegas: 0:31:42

But I am surprised at how many people don't.

Harry Duran: 0:31:47

I think for me, what happened is the opposite because I did like many podcast, when you get started, there's so many moving parts, you're so. Nervous about everything, especially a bit intimidated with some of these guests who, when you're getting started, they're big names in the space. And so I did have my list of questions, and I've talked about this a couple of times on the show. But just there comes a point when you have to ditch the list because you have a short time. I remember talking to John Lee Dumas of Entrepreneur and Fire had like 30 minutes. He's well known for having really short windows for interviews. And I was like, this is not going to work. I just got to freeflow it because I think it was even during the afternoon, it was like a noon or something interview. And so I just realized that for me personally, I think it keeps me more engaged and it's almost more of an interaction back and forth and me reading off the vibes of the guest and just forcing myself to be more curious, be more attentive, pay more attention. And so it's not always the easiest thing because it requires a higher energy level. And I've noticed on times when I've decided to do two interviews, or sometimes because of the two shows, like three interviews in a day, energy is depleted as the day goes on and as you have this interaction because you're exchanging energy with someone. Right? So, yeah, I had something interview today, and I was like, I'm just going to reschedule it because I just already know. And then I went back into Savvy Cal. And I was like, I got to adjust my settings.

Harry Duran: 0:33:08

I only want one of these a day because I think I'm just learning over the years that I want to be my most available for these conversations. And I think it's a sweet spot around time of the day as well, like, where your energy level is. That's a lot of and it's not the same for everyone. That's the thing. You have to find the rhythm that makes sense for you. And I think that's a bit of what you're alluding to what makes you feel the most comfortable as a host when you're having these conversations.

Tim Villegas: 0:33:33

Yeah, and you just reminded me. I am trying to figure out ways to streamline my process. And so for this next season, I've actually scheduled back to back interviews because I have not done that before. So this is something new for me, and I'm going into it knowing that it's going to be a day. Like it's going to be a day. Yeah, but I think we all have to figure out what's going to work for our schedule and our creative process and switch things up a bit. I've been doing the same kind of thing for a long time, so I've never done this before. So we'll see.

Harry Duran: 0:34:15

And the beauty of it is that we're the producers of the show, we're the showrunners, whatever term you want to use, we're the editors, we're the marketers we're wearing all the hats. And I know with this show, I did everything for this show for that first year, but it was helpful because it helped me to launch my agency, Fullcast, and where we produce shows for clients. Now we're Full service agency, but I wouldn't have realized all the moving parts, and that the things that people needed help with if I hadn't done it in the beginning. So it's been really helpful. But talking a bit about format and how to change up things, we talked a little bit and you touched on Narrative podcasts, which I've been a fan of myself, but I've always thought about how much work goes into making them sound the way they do. And I'm curious what this new project is about and how you think about how much more work it's going to involve to get the sound that you're going to want from these shows.

Tim Villegas: 0:35:04

Well, it is a lot of work, and I haven't done even most of the work. It's really just collected tape. So the big vision of inclusion stories is telling stories of families that are actively advocating for their son or daughter to be included in regular school, in regular classes.

Harry Duran: 0:35:28

Okay.

Tim Villegas: 0:35:28

And they have some level of success. So there's a family here in Athens, Georgia, that I interviewed. There's a family closer to home where I live. And I did some recording of families in California and a few other people that I've done remote interviews with. And so the format is going to be telling their story and then contrasting it with some field recording and interviews with school districts that are already inclusive. So I created a pilot episode, which I guess not. You certainly don't have to do it, but for me, and I'm looking for funding, it made sense for me to make a pilot to show what it would kind of sound like to show potential sponsors. I also presented the pilot at a few conferences. So the pilot features the family story. And then I cut to this school district in Maryland, Cecil County Public Schools, where I am interviewing some school leaders and they're explaining their process of how they include everyone. And so we have tape of me in classrooms and talking about how preschool works. And then we go back to talking about the family and their worries about is this inclusion thing going to last? Because every year there's something called an Individualized Education Program meeting, and every year that the school team has to review it. And so is this going to be the year that the district is like, no, this is not going to work? Like, no, you can't do this anymore.

Tim Villegas: 0:37:19

And that's a constant fear of families. What I do is I intermix my narrative with clips and then some music and music beds and stuff like that. And then I go back and forth and it's just a lot of trial and error. I didn't go to school for this. I haven't taken any classes. I've talked to a lot of people and listened to a lot of narrative podcasts. And I tried to make it sound the way that I would want to make it sound. But it's a huge learning curve. And I'm grateful for my employers that they took a chance on me and was like, yes, if you want to do it, do it. So I'm like, okay, we're doing this. So I have hours of tape. Hours of tape, Harry. And I'm like, well, I'm already X amount of dollars into this thing, so it's going to happen.

Harry Duran: 0:38:17

What's interesting about folks that are in that space, you almost know right away when they refer to their audio as tape, that they're coming at it from the other angle because that's the NPR world and where it used to actually be recorded on tape. And they referred to the hours and hours of tape that they have. But there is something really interesting. It's a specific skill set because I love those shows too, but I'm also a bit of a perfectionist. And I feel like it would be just a huge rabbit hole because even just if you think about the music and then the nat sound of like you talk about the classroom, I already think I imagine the school bell ringing and you hear the bustle of the kids in the hallway. And then I remember I got to interview Leah Tao of Strangers, which was one of my favorite shows at the time. And I met her at Podcast Movement. And I was like, oh, my God. Her shows are, like, so immersive, and you feel like you're in the room with these people. And so I think remember, this is a funny story because I spoke to her in podcast Moving. I was like, I live in California. She's like, oh, me too. She's like, oh, I live in La. She's like, oh, yeah, me too. She's like, oh, I live in Silver Lake.

Harry Duran: 0:39:20

She's like, I live in Silver Lake as well too. So she's like, why don't you just come over to my house and record the episode?

Tim Villegas: 0:39:26

That is fantastic.

Harry Duran: 0:39:27

How wants me to come over to the house? I was like, this is way too much pressure. I was like a super fan of hers. I didn't hear her style. And so I remember recording I think I had the portable zoom recorder and I put it towards the floor as I was walking on the gravel towards her door and knocking on the door and just getting that whole feel. Obviously, it's something that I didn't repeat for a lot of other episodes, especially now that I'm doing them remotely. But it's interesting because I always think about this idea of theater of the mind. And when it's done really well, you close your eyes and you just feel like, oh my God, I'm in there. And you get the ambient sound and you can tell if you're outside or you're inside. And even like, a room echo is helpful and needed sometimes if you're trying to set context. So I applaud you for tackling that challenge because I know it's a lot of moving parts and it's nothing like recording one of these episodes and then just like removing a couple of UMS and Oz. It's just next level stuff.

Tim Villegas: 0:40:20

Yeah. So I've always wanted to produce that kind of audio. I just haven't had the time or the focus to be able to do it. And so now it's a real pleasure and hopefully it'll turn out as good as I want it to. One thing that I am looking for, though, because I know people listen to this podcast and they're podcasters or they're interested in the podcasting space, is, I need help. I need help. Whether it's just someone to be like, hey, Tim, you're doing a great job, like, keep it up, or to listen to episodes, to read scripts, to help me with music, I just need help. So if anyone's interested, let me know.

Harry Duran: 0:41:07

Yes. And also it's a reminder to leverage all the platforms that you have at your disposal. Like on my second show, we just lost our editor for the newsletter. So I had to jump in there and just kind of put stuff together and just say, hey, the first thing I did at the top of newsletter is like, hey, we're looking for someone. And someone actually just emailed me back this morning and said, I love your show. I've listened to every single episode of the podcast and I do some copywriting. I'd be honored to work on it. I was like, okay, sometimes you just have to make the ask. Do it on your Twitter, do it on your LinkedIn, do it every platform that you have at your disposal, take advantage of that. So obviously here, if people are listening to Reach Out, definitely we'll make sure all your contact info is available.

Tim Villegas: 0:41:48

Absolutely.

Harry Duran: 0:41:49

How are things going with the new show? As with all things aerial related, she does a great job of getting the word out. I've heard James Kridland mention it on Pod News as well, which is fun.

Tim Villegas: 0:42:00

Yeah, that was a little surreal. The new show is great. We just wrapped our first season with the last episode, I think it was middle of April, and so we had eight episodes. We have three bonus episodes coming up. And speaking of narrative podcasts, so one of the trailers that we featured was for Serum, which is a podcast with Grant Hill from The Pulse and local transmedia. And it's funny, we're doing this show and we're listening to trailers, and I was so enamored with the trailer of Serum that I'm like, I have to listen to this show.

Harry Duran: 0:42:45

Like, mission accomplished.

Tim Villegas: 0:42:49

Yeah. So it's an unintended consequence, but a very positive one for me because I listened to serum. And I was like, this was fantastic. I want to interview Grant. So for one of our bonus episodes, I interviewed Grant and we get into the idea of just how hard it is to produce a narrative podcast and just the emotions and the intricacies of trying to figure out how to tell a story when you're not exactly sure where it's going to go. So that's going to come out. We have interviewed Daniel from Focus rate. It's going to be a fantastic episode. And we are also going to do a more intricate critique. A trailer by a podcast. I think they're called Digital folklore. So those have yet to be written and produced, but they will be coming in the next few weeks.

Harry Duran: 0:43:46

As someone who is anxiously awaiting my opportunity to submit a couple of trailers for review, what is best practice and music? No music, just talking duration, what do you find works best?

Tim Villegas: 0:43:58

Well, I think we both really enjoyed ariel and I both really enjoyed the creative aspect of trailers. So ones that weren't just necessarily, hey, my name is Tim Villegas and I host Think Inclusive. And you're going to hear so I think there's an aspect of we do like for you to tell us what we're going to expect. But if there's a way that you can bring in your personality and kind of show us in the tone of the trailer what you're going to get when you listen, I think that is probably the biggest thing. Like, we featured where did I get like, this podcast? And it was somebody who had moved around a lot and I believe he was, I think he was military. I'm sorry, Sean, if you're listening to this, but his personality really came out in the trailer and he used a lot of audio clips of his guests. And so it was like, oh, I get the idea of what this is going to be about and I think I might check it out. And then of course, Serum was more immersive trailer. And so it really sets you up. If you're a narrative podcast person, then you're like, oh, there's going to be an aspect of mystery to this. And we also featured fiction podcasts. So Newt Shadowkati, Where the Stars Fell, so you had an idea of, oh, this is going to be fun, it's going to be funny, it's going to be quirky, it's going to take me to somewhere unexpected. So anytime a trailer can reveal, but not too much what's going to happen, I think it's effective. And so we talk a lot about is this trailer effective at setting someone up for knowing what the podcast is going to be about.

Tim Villegas: 0:45:54

And so those are the ones we picked. Typically sounds like I'll need to do.

Harry Duran: 0:45:58

A little bit of research into my back catalog and I'm at 310 already if I'm looking forward to that.

Tim Villegas: 0:46:05

I know, yeah. I've actually been thinking about that too. It's like, well, who do I pick? How am I supposed to pick audio clips from? I mean, you have 300, but even like 80 or 90, how am I supposed to do that?

Harry Duran: 0:46:17

Yeah, probably start with the most popular downloads and then take a look at it. The challenge with me is that I've always trying out new tools. So I started with Lipson. Then I went to Transistor. And then I went to Simplecast. And then I went to now I'm on captivate. I think I even did Megaphone for a little bit as well. But my stats are like, obviously nonexistent when you start moving them. At this point, I don't even really look at them too much. I just look at the engagement and the feedback from the guests. And honestly, it's a platform that I have. I call it my virtual stage. And I just love the fact that if I want to have a conversation with someone, I have a vehicle for doing that, and these conversations light me up. So that's the focus for me and the reason why I continue to do it. It's a little sporadic with episodes.

Harry Duran: 0:47:02

Sometimes they go out every week, sometimes they go out once a month, depending if I have guests. But I'm always appreciative of the doors that have been opened because had it not been for this show, I wouldn't have my agency, I wouldn't have my second show, I wouldn't have met my current partners. So many amazing opportunities that have opened up in my world. Connections made, friends made for a lifetime, which I'm really appreciative of. So as we wrap up, I have a couple of questions for you. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?

Tim Villegas: 0:47:29

This comes to mind. So I took a lift from Atlanta. Back home. I had just come back from a work trip, and my Lyft driver was like, talking about Dungeons and Dragons and gaming and stuff like that. And I'm like, yeah, I don't really consider myself a gamer. And then we started talking. I started saying all the things that I did. So, like, my son plays Fortnite, and so I play Fortnite with him. We just downloaded this game called all I can think of is Jedi Survivor, but that's not the one. It's jedi something. I can't think of it right now. And then we play DND we have tons of board games. We go to this thing called DragonCon, which I I think, you know what, that because you've been in Atlanta. So Dragon Con is huge in September, and the guy looks at me and he's like, you're totally a gamer. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you were so right.

Tim Villegas: 0:48:28

That's so funny, because I was like, no, I'm not a gamer. I am not. So that is something I'm trying to embrace. I've been trying to embrace my gamerness.

Harry Duran: 0:48:39

Yeah, I think there's different levels of it because I started in the Atari 2600 days, definitely dating myself, but even recently my partner and I have an Oculus VR, which has been interesting experience, surprisingly enough, for the workout aspect. There's a boxing game in there called FitXR, and you put that on for twelve minutes, you are sweating and you're sore the next day. So for some people that just think you're just getting immersed and losing yourself and vegging out, there are ways to use those games to benefit yourself and even some of the brain games as well. So I think kudos to you for accepting embracing your gamer.

Tim Villegas: 0:49:17

Absolutely, I'm embracing my gamerness, yes.

Harry Duran: 0:49:20

What's the most misunderstood thing about you?

Tim Villegas: 0:49:23

Most people think I speak Spanish because my last name Tim Villegas, but folks, I do not speak Spanish. In fact, if you try to speak Spanish to me, I will say losiento mia spanol muimalo. That's about all I can say.

Harry Duran: 0:49:41

That's funny, because I was thinking about opening with a comment in Spanish and I was like, oh, Villegas is perfect. I'm just going to be like, hey, come on, stas amigo. I'm glad I did it.

Tim Villegas: 0:49:52

Well, I probably would be like stab yen. Harry, ITU yeah.

Harry Duran: 0:49:56

What is your heritage?

Tim Villegas: 0:49:58

A Mexican.

Harry Duran: 0:49:58

Mexican?

Tim Villegas: 0:49:59

Yeah, both my parents are Mexican. Okay. My dad was actually born in Juarez.

Harry Duran: 0:50:06

That's a rough city.

Tim Villegas: 0:50:07

It's a rough city, yeah, he immigrated when he was ten to El Paso and then they took California.

Harry Duran: 0:50:13

Okay, very cool. Well, Tim, I think we covered all the bases, really wide ranging discussions, which are some of my favorites, and so I'm super grateful. You never know where the connections and podcasting are going to lead you. I mean, you started two years before I did and we had never been on each other's radar, but obviously the great connector, Ariel, obviously the connector of all people. I'm so happy because it was initially to talk a little bit about what's happening with trailer park podcast, but also just seeing your experience and your passion for podcasting obviously made it just common sense that I just want to have you and to talk about all things podcast on the show so you didn't disappoint. I'm super grateful we got connected and I'm really happy you got to share your story here.

Tim Villegas: 0:51:00

It was an honor, Harry, thanks for having me.

Harry Duran: 0:51:02

Where's the best place for folks to learn about all the things you're working on?

Tim Villegas: 0:51:06

I'm very easily accessible on the interwebs, so you can find me at Twitter, at the Realtime Villegas on Instagram them, and you can always look up my nonprofit, which is Mci.org.

Harry Duran: 0:51:22

Okay, we'll be sure to have all those links in the show notes if anyone has any questions about how to connect with you. Thanks again, I really appreciate this time together.

Tim Villegas: 0:51:30

Of course.